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I can only repeat my challenge:
"y all means, cite the evidence which tells us the universe genuinely began 13.5 billion years ago, with the Big Bang."
I'm a physics, I'm well aware of what the theory states, and what it doesn't. I'm aware of what the evidence is, and what notions it supports, and what it doesn't. If you genuinely believe that there is evidence that the universe actually began with the Big Bang, I invite you to cite it.
Did it. Didn't take.
I'm hoping that's not your best evidence.
If you knew my exgirlfriend, you'd take that all back.Relate, truely believe. Walk in those shoes(sandals). Believe it first then test it. The truth is, none disagree with love. Love is blameless. Neither you or any other can disagree that love is good. Love intends no harm to another. Love desires the best for one another. Love is the winner friend.
In and of itself, certainly, but again, with regards to the topic, it's irrelevant. We're discussing ethics and morality, the ability to say "don't kill" without reference to the Bible. Whether the universe formed by natural, unintelligent processes, or was created by God, or whatever, doesn't affect this.
Scripture also says donkeys can talk. To an atheist, citing the Bible is no more meaningful than citing the Qur'an, or Peter Rabbit.According to this scripture, you are ungodly, unrighteous, unthankful, and even after His invisible attributes have been clearly seen -- you deny them!
Even Eistein after studying the universe for many years realized that there must be a God because there is so much order it couldn't have happened by chance.
Yes, it does, and there are four forces that allow it to do this.Matter does not organize itself.
Make it sound as ridiculous as you want, its veracity is determined by the evidence alone. If you need to resort to cheap semantic tricks, well, you've already lost.Stephen Hawking has answers that atheists cling to, but he is foolish. That's another verse: "He who says there is no God is a fool". But your argument of course would be supporting the Big Bang and on the side of evolution, a mindless process of chance mutations ordering themselves with mindless nature choosing beneficial mutations in a piece by piece manner to become complex, unique life forms, provided for in unique ways within a vast eco-sytem ... not to mention life spontaneously happening as a result of some chemical + electrical + electromagnetic + solar energies effecting some premordial goo and poof, millions of years later, you. (I could have broken up that run on sentence but heck with it!)
I'll share something from a book I wrote.
"Let's use another example, the human embryo. The male
sperm fertilizes the female egg. Why? What wills it to do this?Does it have a little brain to direct itself? Does it say to itself, I
just have to get into that egg? No, it has no brain. It swims like a
fish but in and of itself does not have consciousness. So what is the
causal force that wills these tiny cells? Again we nonchalantly
respond; [FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][/FONT]that's life!
Yes.But let's dig below the surface. There must
be someone or something outside of itself. Out of a million sperm
cells, one penetrates the egg wall, fertilizes the egg and mitosis
begins. These cells begin to multiply rapidly. Do the cells
communicate to each other?
Yes.Are we to believe that there is nothing
outside of the womb organizing this process?
Farcial, yes, but accurate, in its crude way. The cells react to their own genetic material, which tells them exactly what to do.Let's imagine one cell saying to the other cell, let's make a
human! Ok guys. We have a tough job to do. Did you do your
studies? I want no mistakes here. First we need to decipher the
billions of bits of information from our genetic code to organize
the trillions of cells into this complex body. We have to duplicate
ourselves, correct errors, make modifications, build factories that
manufacture complex proteins and amino acids and millions of
other precision tasks that are time-sensitive. All systems function
dependently on each other. You guys over there, make the brain
and nervous system and you on this side, the circulatory system
and you, the lungs and respiratory system and so on. If there are
any questions, refer to the code! This may be a good idea for a
cartoon but it is obviously a ridiculous scenario
A bald assertion on your part. Evolution explains how this phenomenon can come about, despite your attempts to ridicule it.Those would be
very smart cells, smarter than any humans on the planet. Seriously,
they are complex cells but they are not the builders and brains
behind the operation nor do they organize themselves!
Err, no. The proteins and enzymes which mediate this task have evolved over millions of years to become very good indeed at what they do.Since energy that comes from the sun or nuclear or
electromagnetic or electrical or any chemical reaction, does not
have intelligence to decipher codes and organize this mind
boggling task, it must be more than energy.
This life force requires
intelligence and power beyond what we know. If it has a mind then
it is a person, an incredible being! And all living and nonliving
things depend on this Supreme Being to create, organize, grow and
sustain everything. One does not need to go back in history for
proof of God, just look at all the designs of life around you. Look
at the stars in the sky. Design requires a Designer, order requires
an Organizer, mathematical laws require a Law Giver and creation
Each statement here is just unsupported conjecture after unsupported conjecture, making sweeping philosophical assumptions and gratuitous scientific errors.requires a Creator." RDB
Briefly, our sense of morality is an evolved response to social living. The nebulous urge to not kill other humans stems from the fact that those around you are likely to be your kin, and thus carry something very similar to your genetic code. "Don't kill" is also the basis of a mammalian society - rampant psychopathy would end the society before it began. Thus, to function as a society, we evolved these instincts to curb behaviour that would otherwise doom us.Another invisible attribute is one that exists inside you. You say you have morals. A moral code or compass is evidence of God as well. Where did that come from?
A negative feedback loop in the brain to prevent repetion of behaviour we have evolved to dislike - treachery, betrayal, theft, etc, all serve to stop us from doing something.Your conscience says you ought to go this way and you try to rationalize or analyze it logically and choose the wrong way! The voice inside you telling you to do something isn't always you? Is that you arguing with yourself. You may say, your parents or society taught you morals. But this conflict within, just you struggling with yourself? And then what about afterwards, the experience guilt for doing something wrong even if no one knows? Is this a self imposed moral that we violate? Why do you feel guilty for anything?
Oh, look, another unsupported assertion.God wired us that way.
He's taking his time. Is God so limited in faculty that he has to wait?Even though you are not aware of it, he has led you to this forum. He orchestrates people and events in your life to lead you to a certain moment at which time He reveals Himself.
For what purpose? Do you expect, genuinely expect, that there's a chance God will change his mind and accelerate whatever plans you say he has? Whether you pray for him or not, how will that change the relationship between God and AtheistAlan?Get ready, I'll pray for you.
Indeed!Philosophy ... don't you love it?
The Big Bang isn't something that happens at any one point, it's a phenomenon that the entire universe is undergoing. Every point in space is moving away from every other point. It's like asking what happened before the beginning of time, or what's north of the north pole, or who's the bachelor's wife, or what colour an invisible unicorn is - the very nature of the question renders it moot. It's not the easiest concept to get your head around, for sure, but it's robust.
I'm not sure what you mean. A theory is the highest echelon of certainty possible by science - atoms and galaxies are theoretical, after all. Be careful you don't fall into the, "But it's just a theory!" fallacy.
The Big Bang isn't something that happens at any one point, it's a phenomenon that the entire universe is undergoing.
By all means, cite the post wherein I made this claim. I'll make it easier for you. With regards to the discussion between me and your good self, there are six posts (from oldest to latest):But you are the one making the extraordinary claim it did not
Because, as I carefully explained in a previous post, our theories don't allow us to say anything about what happened before the Big Bang, or even if anything happened at all.yet offered no evidence such as any element or elements older then the big bang.
Because you made a claim. In your original reply to me, back in post #303, you said:Why do you ask for evidence from me?
See above.It is you making the extraordinary claim here with nothing but an opinion or educated guess at best. By what grounds do you suppose the universe is older then the big bang and what evidence do you have to offer for this?
If you believe in Genesis is a literal, historical account, then we very much can prove it wrong. But there are many interpretations of the various texts and claims of the Bible, so I cannot comment on whether your beliefs have been disproven or not until you expound them.
The accretion of matter in the nebular cloud that preceded the solar system.Atheism. That is the topic. Atheism is a disbelif in a Creator, yet testifys of what is. How is that "what is" existant? Your divided. The earth exists, where does it come from though?
As do the Qur'an and the Vedas. Anyone can posit a guess, but science offers real explanations that can be tested and verified.The Holy Bible offers and explanation.
We don't know. The evidence tells us that there is indeed a Big Bang, but we do not yet know what, if anything, caused it.Science offers a big bang. Where did a bigbang come from?
I've never made such a claim. Please do not put words into my mouth.Address it if you are truely interested in persueing your belief that a god doesnt exist.
Where would you like me to start?The burden of poof rest upon your shoulders. Your the one that must prove a random series of events that has accumilated to current events of today.
Except, you haven't. "Goddidit" is not an explanation, it's a placeholder for a real explanation. More to the point, we scientists are interested in testable explanations, explanations that actually hold water when you poke them, which can stand on their own empirical merits.Believers in God, a Creator have already presented a summary of explanations. If you are truely interested in proving creation to be formed in some other way, provide evidence. The burden of proof lies upon yourself. We have offered an explanation.
I don't think you quite understand how science works. First, no one demands ultimate proof unless someone asserts they have it. Second, scientific parlance is couched in the probablistic simply because we don't say more than we know - if the evidence shows a 95% correlation, we're going to say there's a 95% correlation. If the evidence shows that a drug probably cures this disease, then we're going to say the drug probably cures the disease.A theory is an educated guess, stemmed from equations that result in a response of, "my best guess is", or "my calculations point to". Demanding ultimate proof from a believer and yet giving yourself a "wiggle room" to say "it may or may not be" is not proving your "theorys" to be true, instead, simply saying, "I can't say for sure, but Im speculating", or "It could be this or that".
Err... no. Scientists couch their language in the probabilistic because they are smart enough to know that absolute knowledge is only attainable in pure mathematics. However, you're hyperbole is so far off that I don't know where to start. Just because we freely and openly admit that we may be wrong, doesn't mean we can't confidently say, "Penicillin saves lives", "The Earth is not flat", etc. 99.99999% certainty is pretty dаmn certain.Leaving yourself in a state of doubt, from your own confessing, unreliable source of truth and rather still desiring to obtain the truth, or admitting that your wasting every human beings time by saying "Im only guessing so that neither side will blame me for being wrong, because Im scared of their fury of correcting me, so I will just remain neutral and not say it is one way or another".
Then why should I listen to you, if you openly admit that your own words mean nothing?That is moot, friend. Literally jump into a conclusion, without fear, God is greater, don't worry, I can protect you. Jump into an actual summary, and walk in its paths and discard the fake and accept the truths and conclude based on the truth of it. Do not be afraid. Mankinds judgement means squat compared to actual truth.
Not at all: "I don't know" is a legitimate response when, well, I don't know. I don't know everything, and I never will. I freely admit that. I limit myself wholly to what the evidence can support.A super nova. Consider that that is an end. Every ending has a beginning.
Where did the universe come from?
Your argument is at a stalemate until you have an answer for every doubt.
Because, as I carefully explained in a previous post, our theories don't allow us to say anything about what happened before the Big Bang, or even if anything happened at all.
And I'm waiting for you to point to anywhere in this thread where I made such an assertion.I state that the universe came from the big bang because nothing can be dated prior to the big bang. Rather simple no?
If you can show me any thing older then 13.75 billion years then we can discuss your opinion that the universe existed or any thing existed before the big bang.
Waiting for some thing older then the big bang..
I'm not sure what you mean. A theory is the highest echelon of certainty possible by science -
Relate, truely believe. Walk in those shoes(sandals). Believe it first then test it.
The truth is, none disagree with love. Love is blameless. Neither you or any other can disagree that love is good. Love intends no harm to another. Love desires the best for one another. Love is the winner friend.
Perhaps, but he's woefully lacking in his ability to show it. Suffering, tragedy, death, all have befallen me and my loved ones - had I the means, I wouldn't sit in the shadows and watch those I love "very much" live in torment. Free will or no free will, suffering is never justified, except possibly to diminish further suffering.
And the Bible still promotes stoning gay people to death. Context is everything, my friend.
If you knew my exgirlfriend, you'd take that all back.
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