Atheism, Learned Helplessness, and Clinical Depression

Paradoxum · Jul 1, 2014

BlueLightningTN said:
Did you see the youtube video I provided you in this thread featuring Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson?

I've watched it now. Maybe we are in the matrix. I've seen a philosophical argument saying there's a 30% chance we are in the matrix (though I'm not sure that's true).

So then you do not believe there was an original cause/action?

Maybe there was a natural cause. But if time began with the Big Bang, then there wouldn't be a cause for the Universe ('cause' implies change, which requires time), but rather there would be an explanation for it.

BL2KTN · Jul 1, 2014

Eudaimonist said:
Scientists don't know for certain if the past is infinite or finite. I lean towards finite, but in that case I don't think that there was an original cause of physical reality as such. It would simply have been in the nature of whatever existed at that earliest instant of time to change.

We know that the past is finite because if it were infinite, we could never have reached the present. An infinite past never reaches the current moment.

Paradoxum said:
I've watched it now. Maybe we are in the matrix. I've seen a philosophical argument saying there's a 30% chance we are in the matrix (though I'm not sure that's true).

It's greater than 30% I believe (recalling just from memory). I'm okay with the idea of a simulated universe, and I'm also okay with being a deist based on the idea that the programmer would be equivalent to the watchmaker. I don't know much about the watchmaker, but I suspect it exists.

Maybe there was a natural cause. But if time began with the Big Bang, then there wouldn't be a cause for the Universe ('cause' implies change, which requires time), but rather there would be an explanation for it.

I think we can go farther back than the big bang. I'm a proponent of the multiverse and the idea that universes give birth to other universes. I also am not a fan of the idea that the big bang happened 'just cause'. It requires preexisting phenomena to occur, including motion of time and laws of physics.

quatona · Jul 1, 2014

God must be depressed since Its existence has no externally given meaning.

BL2KTN · Jul 1, 2014

You'll have to clarify.

Eudaimonist · Jul 1, 2014

BlueLightningTN said:
We know that the past is finite because if it were infinite, we could never have reached the present. An infinite past never reaches the current moment.

That is precisely why I lean toward a finite past, but some physicists I have spoken with think that the math doesn't rule out an infinite past. They may be mistaken, but I'm not certain that I'm not mistaken. It is tricky to engage in thought experiments where one imagines the implications of infinities.

It is counter intuitive, for instance, to think that there can be different sizes of infinities, but there are persuasive mathematical arguments that this is in fact the case.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Gladius · Jul 1, 2014

FireDragon76 said:
Buddhism, as practiced (not the interpretations found on message boards on the internet, coming from western dilettantes), is not "atheistitc" as would be understood by most of the atheists participating in this discussion. It would be more proper to call it "non-theistic". Some have described Buddhism as a non-theistic transcendentalism. As atheists usually deny the existence of a transcendent reality, this makes Buddhism not exactly "atheistic" as usually understood.

Religious belief is definitely correlated with increased mental health, and more religious societies tend to have happier people with less suicide (for instance, Italy vs. Finland). However, I suspect the difference is less down to the "ultimate meaning" of things in the philosophical sense, and simply because human beings are goal-oriented and task-oriented by nature, and having a life structure by goals contributes to less anomie than a life without these reference points.

Please explain to me the difference between athestic and non-theistic?

Siddhartha Gautama Buddha and those that follow his teachings correctly (and my mother is a Japanese ordained Zen nun, so I'm not just some "western dilettante") do not believe in the existence of ANY Gods.

That my friend, is the precise definition of an atheist, as commonly understood on these message boards.

As to your assertion that "religious belief is definitely correlated with increased mental health, and more religious societies tend to have happier people's" please cite the studies you are aware of which evidence this.

I'd say those people being brutually murdered in the name of religion in Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Nigeria, and Israel (to name just a few) at present, evidence the opposite.

Paradoxum · Jul 1, 2014

BlueLightningTN said:
It's greater than 30% I believe (recalling just from memory). I'm okay with the idea of a simulated universe, and I'm also okay with being a deist based on the idea that the programmer would be equivalent to the watchmaker. I don't know much about the watchmaker, but I suspect it exists.

I don't think a deist God is likely.

The watchmaker would need an explanation for why it exists anyway.

I think we can go farther back than the big bang. I'm a proponent of the multiverse and the idea that universes give birth to other universes. I also am not a fan of the idea that the big bang happened 'just cause'. It requires preexisting phenomena to occur, including motion of time and laws of physics.

Well if stuff happened before the Big Bang, then the cause of the universe could be natural.

BL2KTN · Jul 1, 2014

Paradoxum said:
I don't think a deist God is likely.

The watchmaker would need an explanation for why it exists anyway.

What is a deist god?

Well if stuff happened before the Big Bang, then the cause of the universe could be natural.

It could be. I don't know that a creator would be anything other.

Received · Jul 1, 2014

quatona said:
God must be depressed since Its existence has no externally given meaning.

That would explain the Old Testament. As soon as he has a kid, boom!, he's suddenly a different guy.

Ana the Ist · Jul 1, 2014

quatona said:
God must be depressed since Its existence has no externally given meaning.

Perhaps that's why she seems to desire worship above all else.

Archaeopteryx · Jul 1, 2014

BlueLightningTN said:
Typically when one declares another wrong, they do so with reasoning.

As I recall, that was already done.

FireDragon76 · Jul 2, 2014

Eudaimonist said:
Why are you singling out atheism here? Do you have any statistics that show that it is specifically the atheists of both Italy and Finland that commit suicide in significantly greater proportions than theists?

I was comparing a relatively religious country vs. a relatively irreligious country.

FireDragon76 · Jul 2, 2014

Archaeopteryx said:
Perhaps at a population-level. At an individual-level, however, thoughts of blasphemy can be crippling in the context of OCD.

I've read a great deal about OCD, and I've never seen anyone suggest that religion causes OCD.

Religion is not the only means by which one can have structure in one's life.

What else would create the sort of structure that religion often involves, other than religion? Especially in the United States? Atheists have no similar institutions. You would be the first to argue that atheism is not a worldview, after all, so why would atheism promote any kind of institutional structure that could fill that need?

quatona · Jul 2, 2014

FireDragon76 said:
What else would create the sort of structure that religion often involves, other than religion? Especially in the United States? Atheists have no similar institutions. You would be the first to argue that atheism is not a worldview, after all, so why would atheism promote any kind of institutional structure that could fill that need?

Yes, atheism isn´t a world view...but it doesn´t preclude you from having a world view.

Archaeopteryx · Jul 2, 2014

FireDragon76 said:
I've read a great deal about OCD, and I've never seen anyone suggest that religion causes OCD.

I've had OCD, and religion played a big part of it.

What else would create the sort of structure that religion often involves, other than religion? Especially in the United States? Atheists have no similar institutions. You would be the first to argue that atheism is not a worldview, after all, so why would atheism promote any kind of institutional structure that could fill that need?

I never said that atheism could. I said that religion isn't the only means by which one can have structure in one's life. There are institutions besides churches. Religious pursuits aren't the only pursuits that people can occupy themselves with.

FireDragon76 · Jul 2, 2014

Syd the Human said:
Why can't atheists accept or believe in any of those definitions? I am sure there are atheists who believe in ghosts or ESP etc etc. Atheism is about no belief in a god or gods.

Even though many consider Buddhism "atheist", in reality there are a great deal of similarities between Christian and Buddhist mysticism. That's why I'd challenge the idea that Buddhism is atheistic in the usual sense.

The main difference between Buddhism and atheism is very simple: Buddhism is a spiritual worldview, atheism is not. You aren't going to find people like Sam Harris or Richard Dawkins believing that circumambulating a stupa brings you enlightenment, that spinning a prayer wheel is meritorious, or that each individual has had innumerable past lives, and yet this sort of thing is normal for Buddhists to believe, even though they don't believe in the Abrahamic God.

FireDragon76 · Jul 2, 2014

Archaeopteryx said:
I've had OCD, and religion played a big part of it.

I should qualify what I said... I certainly do not believe all religious beliefs or practices are benign, I do think there are kinds of religiosity that are toxic. But on the balance, it's hard to argue that religion, in some abstract sense, is harmful.

I've delt with OCD too . Sometimes it's had a religious manifestation but usually it hasn't involved religious issues. And from what I've read, people with OCD would have OCD whether or not they were religious. Religion might be a factor, if it causes people to take on more guilt or responsibility than is sensible, but not all religions, even Christian religions, focus on guilt or sin to the same degree. But I'd note that even in secular contexts, society can pressure individuals to take on undue guilt and responsibility as well. It's really more of a western problem than a specifically religious problem.

Eudaimonist · Jul 2, 2014

FireDragon76 said:
Eudaimonist said:

Why are you singling out atheism here? Do you have any statistics that show that it is specifically the atheists of both Italy and Finland that commit suicide in significantly greater proportions than theists?

I was comparing a relatively religious country vs. a relatively irreligious country.

Click to expand...

Yes, I know. That comes across as cherry picking the data. What is the study that you are referring to? Does it establish causation, or is it merely showing dubious correlations?

eudaimonia,

Mark

Eudaimonist · Jul 2, 2014

BlueLightningTN said:
Gnostic, coming from the word gnosis, and farther back, gnovi, does refer to knowledge, facts, information, etc. However, agnostics and agnosticism posits that a lack of knowledge, facts, information, etc, is what disallows a definitive belief.

Some agnostics do, but not all.

Agnostic theism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Agnostic theism is the philosophical view that encompasses both theism and agnosticism. An agnostic theist believes in the existence of at least one deity, but regards the basis of this proposition as unknown or inherently unknowable.

The essence of agnosticism is the unknowing aspect. Whatever conclusions made about belief are on top of that, and can differ from agnostic to agnostic.

Therefore, since a theist is a believer-in-the-divine, an atheist is a not-a-believer-in-the-divine.

Yes, which logically includes a lacker-of-belief-in-the-divine.

You're playing semantics.

If I am, so are you.

Atheists do not simply lack a belief in gods, they disbelieve there are gods at all.

False.

In any case, I'm done fighting over word definitions. If you wish to use terms such as "atheism" in ways that atheists themselves don't, I'll just perform the needed mental corrections to your word choice.

eudaimonia,

Mark

quatona · Jul 2, 2014

BlueLightningTN said:
You're playing semantics. Atheists do not simply lack a belief in gods, they disbelieve there are gods at all.

You don´t get to tell me what I believe or disbelieve, based upon your play on semantics.

Atheism, Learned Helplessness, and Clinical Depression

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