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Discussion and Debate
Discussion and Debate
Ethics & Morality
Atheism and nihilism
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<blockquote data-quote="Moral Orel" data-source="post: 75157827" data-attributes="member: 377019"><p>I need to make them associate a lack of fear, or a feeling of comfort, with my security.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Mmm... I'm thinking that some premises are only proven <em>inductively</em> so they are only trying to prove a likelihood. Is that what you mean?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Eh. I don't know a ton about either of those. From my limited understanding of the concepts, I see QM as us discovering that GR is incomplete.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay, so we shouldn't necessarily act on gut instinct desire because we haven't thought about things like consequences we might <em>not</em> want? Okay. But we should act on desires that we've put thought into and weighed the pros and cons?</p><p></p><p></p><p>For starters, should we get what we don't deserve? What if I don't value the well-being of others; should I take what I can get away with?</p><p></p><p></p><p>It only seems like I said "he should get it" because we as a species feel that we ought to get what we want.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I never said they should. You said we should believe the truth <em>and</em> we should do what we want. Sometimes the truth is unfortunately bleak and I'd feel happier if I believed it was false. Sometimes you can't do both.</p><p></p><p>It's widespread too. Take a look at the news and how different it is depending on the political slant of the media organization promoting it. We don't need to talk about which side is right or wrong. The stories are reported in a manner that are mutually exclusive to each other and there are folks on both sides who sincerely believe what's being reported. It's possible that <em>everyone</em> is spreading falsehoods that people believe because they don't want the truth, but <em>at a minimum</em> one side is.</p><p></p><p></p><p>There are no <em>universally</em> held moral values. What we value is so malleable that there is no universal consistency. Some people learn to associate extreme pain with pleasure. Some people learn to associate extreme pleasure with suffering.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Dopamine isn't the only chemical we enjoy the sensation of experiencing, it's just the one most commonly associated with pleasure. Dopamine is released even as we eat. Some people lack the ability to experience pleasure altogether and it's difficult to get them to even eat food. Are you so sure that relaxing doesn't release chemicals that are pleasurable?</p><p></p><p>I don't know a ton about neuroscience, but I have an education in clinical psychology, and the extent of things that we can alter about what people associate with pleasure and suffering is absolutely bizarre.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Not really, I was granting that some thing should be desired and still seeing a gap.</p><p></p><p></p><p>There is. Put it in a syllogism. You need "I should believe things that are true" and "I should seek things that make me happy", respectively, to make a valid argument. I think those are assumed and are separate from what it means to desire things and believe things. We do in fact seek what we desire, but we only <em>feel</em> we should because we <em>feel</em> that we're entitled to being happy.</p><p></p><p></p><p>If we can satisfy a desire, and after deliberation we find that we won't experience consequences that we don't desire, should we pursue that desire? Without exception?</p><p></p><p></p><p>I think we attain happiness by experiencing pleasure and avoiding suffering. Heck, avoiding suffering is pleasurable in itself as it will reinforce behavior just like receiving rewards. But I don't really see this distinction as being all that important.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I told Philo I wouldn't argue with him, so even in this conversation between you and I, I won't comment on any errors I may or may not have identified. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Moral Orel, post: 75157827, member: 377019"] I need to make them associate a lack of fear, or a feeling of comfort, with my security. Mmm... I'm thinking that some premises are only proven [I]inductively[/I] so they are only trying to prove a likelihood. Is that what you mean? Eh. I don't know a ton about either of those. From my limited understanding of the concepts, I see QM as us discovering that GR is incomplete. Okay, so we shouldn't necessarily act on gut instinct desire because we haven't thought about things like consequences we might [I]not[/I] want? Okay. But we should act on desires that we've put thought into and weighed the pros and cons? For starters, should we get what we don't deserve? What if I don't value the well-being of others; should I take what I can get away with? It only seems like I said "he should get it" because we as a species feel that we ought to get what we want. I never said they should. You said we should believe the truth [I]and[/I] we should do what we want. Sometimes the truth is unfortunately bleak and I'd feel happier if I believed it was false. Sometimes you can't do both. It's widespread too. Take a look at the news and how different it is depending on the political slant of the media organization promoting it. We don't need to talk about which side is right or wrong. The stories are reported in a manner that are mutually exclusive to each other and there are folks on both sides who sincerely believe what's being reported. It's possible that [I]everyone[/I] is spreading falsehoods that people believe because they don't want the truth, but [I]at a minimum[/I] one side is. There are no [I]universally[/I] held moral values. What we value is so malleable that there is no universal consistency. Some people learn to associate extreme pain with pleasure. Some people learn to associate extreme pleasure with suffering. Dopamine isn't the only chemical we enjoy the sensation of experiencing, it's just the one most commonly associated with pleasure. Dopamine is released even as we eat. Some people lack the ability to experience pleasure altogether and it's difficult to get them to even eat food. Are you so sure that relaxing doesn't release chemicals that are pleasurable? I don't know a ton about neuroscience, but I have an education in clinical psychology, and the extent of things that we can alter about what people associate with pleasure and suffering is absolutely bizarre. Not really, I was granting that some thing should be desired and still seeing a gap. There is. Put it in a syllogism. You need "I should believe things that are true" and "I should seek things that make me happy", respectively, to make a valid argument. I think those are assumed and are separate from what it means to desire things and believe things. We do in fact seek what we desire, but we only [I]feel[/I] we should because we [I]feel[/I] that we're entitled to being happy. If we can satisfy a desire, and after deliberation we find that we won't experience consequences that we don't desire, should we pursue that desire? Without exception? I think we attain happiness by experiencing pleasure and avoiding suffering. Heck, avoiding suffering is pleasurable in itself as it will reinforce behavior just like receiving rewards. But I don't really see this distinction as being all that important. I told Philo I wouldn't argue with him, so even in this conversation between you and I, I won't comment on any errors I may or may not have identified. :p [/QUOTE]
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