Atheism and Ghosts

[cloudyday2]

Theoretically an atheist can believe in ghosts as long as he/she disbelieves in gods, but as a practical matter it seems that believing in ghosts opens the door to believing in gods.

Lots of people have had ghost experiences - even if some of these experiences have naturalistic explanations. Sometimes the naturalistic explanations are almost as hard to believe as the superstitious explanations. Sometimes there are multiple witnesses, physical objects disappearing and reappearing, and so forth.

Another odd thing about ghost experiences is the apparent importance of Christian stuff (house blessings, crosses, prayers, etc.). For somebody like me who has almost no confidence in Christianity, this is confusing. Maybe the psychological comfort of these Christian behaviors helps people to end hauntings and Hindu behaviors might be just as helpful to a Hindu.

Any thoughts on ghosts? Have you experienced them? What explanations do you have? (Even though I mentioned atheists in the subject, I would appreciate feedback from anybody.)

 

[quatona]

Theoretically an atheist can believe in ghosts as long as he/she disbelieves in gods, but as a practical matter it seems that believing in ghosts opens the door to believing in gods.

How so?

Lots of people have had ghost experiences - even if some of these experiences have naturalistic explanations.

When you say "ghost experiences" - do you mean actually seeing ghosts, or do you mean unexplainable encounters which these people then ascribe to "ghosts" (as a synonym for "unexplainable encounter which I assume must have an agent behind it")?

Sometimes the naturalistic explanations are almost as hard to believe as the superstitious explanations. Sometimes there are multiple witnesses, physical objects disappearing and reappearing, and so forth.

I have never met one of those "lots of people" who experienced such, sorry.

 

[Rajni]

I have only seen what seemed to be an 'entity' point-blank once in my life, back when I was around 10 or 11 years old. It wasn't humanoid in shape, just a black 'cloud', in the middle of the night, when I awoke to see it hovering over the head of my bed. I even made sure this wasn't a mental projection by looking away from it and then looking back at it. It was still in its fixed position near the ceiling. I've had hynopompic hallucinations before, but this wasn't it either.

After just staring up at it a while, I got up to use the restroom (nature calls, after all, and I don't recall being scared of my visitor), and when I returned to bed, it had evidently went on its merry way.

After that, the only things I've experienced have been just mild unexplained occurrences (and I've kept a list of those... because it's fun! ). Nothing more dramatic than that (yet).


-

 

[CrystalDragon]

I've had a couple, but not for the past decade or so that I recall with vivid clarity.

 

[sparkle123]

I believe in the supernatural. I have not seen any apparition, but I've experienced things that make me believe. I had the stereotypical experience with a ouija board as a young person that spooked me. I was using the board with a group of friends and one of them asked to speak with an evil spirit. It goes without saying she was a troubled person, the stereotypical tough girl of the group, but.. Pretty soon the planchette was swinging wildly counter clockwise and we were all looking back and forth saying "I'm not doing it"... I noticed it was stopping on the letter "e-i-d." Die, backwards. When I said that, my friend the initiator let loose with the curse words. The planchette moved to goodbye and a large glass candleholder shattered at the same moment. Freakiest thing ever. We all ran out of the room, coming back later to investigate the sound of the shattering glass. The candle was out and the holder was in pieces.

That scared me away from the occult for a while. I've had hypnagogic and hypnapompic hallucinations but never any visual signs. A few other strange experiences not occult related. I have no explanation for these experiences and don't suppose I ever will. As a Christian I do believe in evil but that hardly means I have proof or evidence that would satisfy the scientifically minded. Oh well. My athiest husband chalks everything up to coincidence or misperceptions or someone being crazy. I guess that makes it easier to deal with. But yeah, I don't think there are explanations, at least not of the sort that exist for natural phenomenon (earthquakes, rainstorms etc).

 

[cloudyday2]

How so?


When you say "ghost experiences" - do you mean actually seeing ghosts, or do you mean unexplainable encounters which these people then ascribe to "ghosts" (as a synonym for "unexplainable encounter which I assume must have an agent behind it")?

I have never met one of those "lots of people" who experienced such, sorry.

Here is a link to a survey where 18% of Americans admitted to having seen a ghost.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/10/30/18-of-americans-say-theyve-seen-a-ghost/

People who have seen a ghost or anything odd like that are usually very cautious about sharing the experience with others. People around you may not have shared their experiences with you, because they do not perceive you to be very open-minded. I am only guessing - and I don't mean that as an insult - being more skeptical isn't a bad thing. Among my family and friends the percentage is closer to 50%. I have experienced many strange things, but I haven't told too many people in real life. Some things I have not shared with anybody in real life. Even people who have experienced things themselves are sometimes dismissive of the experiences of others. It is easier to discuss these things in forums where people are more anonymous.

 

[Aryeh]

Theoretically an atheist can believe in ghosts as long as he/she disbelieves in gods, but as a practical matter it seems that believing in ghosts opens the door to believing in gods.

Lots of people have had ghost experiences - even if some of these experiences have naturalistic explanations. Sometimes the naturalistic explanations are almost as hard to believe as the superstitious explanations. Sometimes there are multiple witnesses, physical objects disappearing and reappearing, and so forth.

Another odd thing about ghost experiences is the apparent importance of Christian stuff (house blessings, crosses, prayers, etc.). For somebody like me who has almost no confidence in Christianity, this is confusing. Maybe the psychological comfort of these Christian behaviors helps people to end hauntings and Hindu behaviors might be just as helpful to a Hindu.

Any thoughts on ghosts? Have you experienced them? What explanations do you have? (Even though I mentioned atheists in the subject, I would appreciate feedback from anybody.)

Ghosts, or more specifically "ghosting" is a phenomenon, not a classification of entity.

Metalhysically, a ghost is an entity that is "out of phase" with a particular dimension. When you see pop culture elaborate on entities with white sheets, transparent immaterial bodies, and extreme features - it is a reference to the phenomenon of phasing/ghosting. Everything else are interpreted details.

Ghost may or may not be demons, angels, humans, or other entities. In those cases, we would need to use the correct terms.

For example, Christ upon resurrection was "ghosting/phasing" when He said not to touch Him because He had not ascended yet. He was certainly not a demon; perfection became Him, and as a consequence of resurrection, He was categorically "out of phase" with the dimensions in which we live.

I have experienced physical demonic attack, poltergeist attacks, witch attacks, spiritual assaults, and other supernatural phenomenon. Unexained by science (in fact, I went to school for science to attempt to naturally understand the phenomena.) It certainly happens, and the experiences are not like Hollywood. Hollywood romanticize almost every aspect of supernature - which is dangerous for the viewers who 1)don't believe in the stuff, 2) have had no experience in it and 3) don't have the resources to defend one''s self. Those resources are spiritual in nature; no EVPs, Tesla coil, or other "scientific" defenses wi work unless they have been warded.

Ghost is a misnomer, but the world from which it comes is very real and dangerous. Most people do not talk about it ease the knee jerk reaction of others is dismissal or disbelief. It invalidates them. I would caution all to have an open, discerning mind rather than one forged on the programming of what is perceivable possible, and real.

On the other hand, I wouldnt want someone to be vindicated of the spiritual world like most of us have - through maligned attacks and assaults even with witnesses present.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

"I have known only one person in my life who claimed to have seen a ghost. It was a woman; and the interesting thing is that she disbelieved in the immortality of the soul before seeing the ghost and still disbelieves after having seen it. She thinks it was a hallucination. In other words, seeing is not believing. This is the first thing to get clear in talking about miracles. Whatever experiences we may have, we shall not regard them as miraculous if we already hold a philosophy which excludes the supernatural." - CS Lewis.

I myself have never seen ghosts or the ilk, but my wife swears her childhood home was haunted. She and her family and even renters who stayed there thereafter, all reported queer phenomena like doors opening and sounds in the dead of night and some reported seeing things.
Similarly we stayed in a house for 4 months which my wife said must have some 'entity'. I didn't see or hear anything, but everything that can go wrong, did go wrong while we were living there and once when my wife was alone she reported some form of 'thing' had been there.

Now I grew up dismissing the supernatural. My childhood home has wooden floors that creak terribly at night, which even as a child I quickly realised wasn't someone walking there, but just the natural cooling of the wood. I went on a 'ghost tour' once and could easily see the chicanery at play (like saying an area has a ghost and we can sometimes feel the 'cold spot' of the ghost, but then this happens to be next to a window etc.).
When my wife first told me about these things, I immediately dismissed them in my mind without a second thought. The problem is that my wife is very level-headed and astute as well as having an excellent education, as have her parents and brothers. As I got to know her better, I am forced to conclude that she is highly unlikely to risk the derision which she knew I would have when she told me this while dating, if she thought there was a more plausible alternative. All that this means though is my highly practical wife believes these were supernatural and my gut feeling is to dismiss them regardless, but I know it is a fallacy to project beliefs held a priori onto otherwise unexplained or uninvestigated events. So maybe it exists? If I am going to assume that God exists and as a supernatural entity interferes with His created world, then how can I just casually dismiss other such claimed phenomena, which also seems to contradict basic naturalistic materialism?
At the very least, a theist holds a philosophy that allows something more than this material world and often life after death, so this makes 'ghosts' more plausible than to an atheist who dismisses anything but the material. The atheist can always find something to pin it on, even if it has to be hallucination or psychoses if nothing else is found.

As a side note: I am sure there are atheists who believe in the supernatural, but I doubt their worldviews would be very consistent and likely very much prone to holding contradictory beliefs. For again to believe in the supernatural, your underlying philosophical metaphysics have to allow for it to occur.

 

[cloudyday2]

One thing I have noticed is that ghost experiences often follow patterns. For example, doors shake energetically, electrical appliances switch on or switch off by themselves, disembodied sounds of music or conversations, etc.

Another pattern is the behavior of the witnesses. They are usually stunned at first and then they calmly try to investigate and correct whatever has been messed-up. Some people are so disturbed that they try forget it ever happened, and other people try to understand what happened with little success.

 

[jacknife]

I love stories of ghost and the such, so much so I even use to look into trying to find a ghost, (along with me looking into exorcism, scrying, spirit boards and other such activities) never had any encounters what so ever and I'm almost positive such things are caused by the mind itself. instead of any actual physical cause. I still find such things fun and often collect things like spirit boards and tarot cards but I don't believe they are supernatural or that spirits of any sorts exists.

 

[cloudyday2]

@Quid est Veritas? mentioned the explanation of hallucinations and psychoses. Sometimes I wonder if it is not a distinct choice between either supernatural or psychological. I suspect that supernatural can be so disturbing that it sometimes triggers psychosis. Also I suspect the psychological states might attract supernatural and make the supernatural feel more extreme.

 

[Aryeh]

Your first example sounds like imps (more playful malevolent entities,) or poltergeists - given the affect the entities have on EM sources.

Your second example sounds like demonic or principality/archon attacks. Generally, poltergeist and malevolent spiritual influence generates fear (spiritually, that fear is like pure quality heroine to these entities - which is why children are often affected.) The shenanigans most entities pull is to induce a chemically energetic reaponse/reaction. Many people believe this energy is used by these entities to put on more "dense" forms i.e. physical bodies. (A demon is a disembodied spirit seeking to fill a physical vessel.) The motif of "cold spots" has often been used to substantiate this theory.

 

[sparkle123]

Another pattern is the behavior of the witnesses. They are usually stunned at first and then they calmly try to investigate and correct whatever has been messed-up. Some people are so disturbed that they try forget it ever happened, and other people try to understand what happened with little success.

This is what happened to me and the group of friends I discussed in my story. We went back to investigate the scene and figure out what happened (glass breaking) but as a group we didn't discuss it again that night or ever, and definitely never used a ouija board again. My bf and I talked a little about it and looked up some advice on the Internet (this was 97 so the resources weren't as good) but we let it drop because it just didn't make sense. In fact, for a long time it remained a weird memory and I was embarrassed to even admit to having experienced it. I just happened to go into a humanistic psych program in college that entertained all sorts of interesting ideas on consciousness and the paranormal, and that brought me back..

@Quid est Veritas? mentioned the explanation of hallucinations and psychoses. Sometimes I wonder if it is not a distinct choice between either supernatural or psychological. I suspect that supernatural can be so disturbing that it sometimes triggers psychosis. Also I suspect the psychological states might attract supernatural and make the supernatural feel more extreme.

I share the suspicion that certain psychological states can attract the supernatural. Because of that, these experiences are hard to manufacture.

 

[Jack of Spades]

@Quid est Veritas? mentioned the explanation of hallucinations and psychoses. Sometimes I wonder if it is not a distinct choice between either supernatural or psychological. I suspect that supernatural can be so disturbing that it sometimes triggers psychosis. Also I suspect the psychological states might attract supernatural and make the supernatural feel more extreme.

I believe in both, supernatural and all the possible scientific/psychological explanations for things that might appear supernatural. It's an important part of my spiritual practice to learn to understand how my head and feelings work and try to keep them from leading me on "wild goose chases", where it was all inside my head from the start. I don't see the two as opposites, or as a choice, I'm better off believing in both. The supernatural to have something to chase, and the psychology to help to keep that chase within somewhat healthy boundaries and not embracing every random tricky emotional phenomenon my mind manufactures.

I've experienced enough to be convinced about supernatural being real myself. Although, I see the experience-chasing as a more of my personal thing, rather than some kind of an ultimate truth I would want to pass on everyone. Mysticism is a thing that can blow persons mind up (I've been pretty close to losing it myself somewhere along the way), so it's not really something I would want to push everyone to try as there are risks involved. I think it's more like a thing that opens up for some people more or less naturally, a bit like a calling maybe?

 

[sparkle123]

I have experienced physical demonic attack, poltergeist attacks, witch attacks, spiritual assaults, and other supernatural phenomenon.

I'm confused as to what the difference is between these groupings.

 

[Disciple37]

Theoretically an atheist can believe in ghosts as long as he/she disbelieves in gods, but as a practical matter it seems that believing in ghosts opens the door to believing in gods.

Lots of people have had ghost experiences - even if some of these experiences have naturalistic explanations. Sometimes the naturalistic explanations are almost as hard to believe as the superstitious explanations. Sometimes there are multiple witnesses, physical objects disappearing and reappearing, and so forth.

Another odd thing about ghost experiences is the apparent importance of Christian stuff (house blessings, crosses, prayers, etc.). For somebody like me who has almost no confidence in Christianity, this is confusing. Maybe the psychological comfort of these Christian behaviors helps people to end hauntings and Hindu behaviors might be just as helpful to a Hindu.

Any thoughts on ghosts? Have you experienced them? What explanations do you have? (Even though I mentioned atheists in the subject, I would appreciate feedback from anybody.)

I have a small ministry dedicated to helping those having paranormal experiences. It's a difficult area, but very rewarding. You often run into problems that the bible didnt go into great detail about, but none the less did equip us with the tools necessary to face all challenges. You learn quickly that the measure of your faith matters and your maturity level as a Christian, however, we must never forget, God is doing all the fighting for you. You simply show up and trust in his mighty name and do your best to witness to the people going through these problems.

 

[MehGuy]

When I was 13, me and my friends had a remote control motorcycle that would move around by itself. Still happened after we removed all the batteries. Was weird.

We had fun with it though. We would pass it around to each other. Mostly we kept it around us while playing PS2 games. And everytime it moved we all darted upstairs.

 

[Aryeh]

I'm confused as to what the difference is between these groupings.

Demons are disembodied spirits. Specifically, they are the union of human women and angels. Because they had physical bodies, but spirits from their angel fathers, when they died they were damned to roam the earth forever. They long for a physical vessel to fill so that they can experience life. This is why the demons Legion begged Christ to send them into swine instead of to Judgment. Any vessel will do, and demons therefore can sometimes be associated with haunting in which objects are determined to have spiritual attachments to them. Because demons have this physical succeptibility, they can be exploited and forced to interact with matter. Solomon had God-given rings that controlled demons (Lord of the Rings before it was a book.) Demons usually attack their enemies, and work for humans who use them for magick. However, humans who exploit demon magick for gain in this life do so with the agreement that their lives belong to the demon after death (this is why many witches, sorcerers, mages and so on are obsessed with immortality: when they die they become the slaves of the demons they used to gain power during their lives. Notice, this is also how Djinn/Jinn/Geenies are described. Possession is one of the highest feats for a demon.

Poltergeist are principalities, powers, archons and sometimes demons whose domain is fluidly interdimensional, with the ability to interact with matter like humans. Moreover, poltergeist also have EM succeptibility, and can affect the EM spectrum, and can be affected by it. Poltergeist usually have agenda: for example, poltergeist activity can occur when pet owners move into a residence which the previous tenant used for animal sacrifices. Maybe a poltergeist wants to inflict as much pain as possible. They do not seem to long for possession of physical vessels, and are "content" with their plan of existence, and how it interacts with out dimension.

Witches are simply living entities (humans) that have exchanged a portion or all of the dominion of their soul with a demon or principality in exchange for power. Witches sorcerers, and real magick does exist, and interdimensional beings demons and principalities are exploited for power by many of them. Some are the "hocus pocus" type, many are clandestine in practice and display.

There are also demons that set to scare their enemies to death. One example of this is sleep paralysis with the feeling of breathlessness, and a heavy weight on the chest. Another is downright physical attack.

 

[quatona]

Here is a link to a survey where 18% of Americans admitted to having seen a ghost.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/10/30/18-of-americans-say-theyve-seen-a-ghost/

People who have seen a ghost or anything odd like that are usually very cautious about sharing the experience with others. People around you may not have shared their experiences with you, because they do not perceive you to be very open-minded. I am only guessing - and I don't mean that as an insult - being more skeptical isn't a bad thing. Among my family and friends the percentage is closer to 50%. I have experienced many strange things, but I haven't told too many people in real life. Some things I have not shared with anybody in real life. Even people who have experienced things themselves are sometimes dismissive of the experiences of others. It is easier to discuss these things in forums where people are more anonymous.

Well, I personally will unlikely ever get the opportunity to say "I experienced a ghost" - simply because I don´t know what a ghost is supposed to be, what it´s supposed to look like, talk like, walk like, smells like...
No doubt, many people (including myself) sometimes experience "strange things" (or, as I´d say, things they have no explanation for) - but I don´t know what´s required for identifying a strange thing or event as "ghost".

 

[Cearbhall]

Theoretically an atheist can believe in ghosts as long as he/she disbelieves in gods, but as a practical matter it seems that believing in ghosts opens the door to believing in gods.

I agree with you generally, but I can think of a couple of exceptions. A person might believe that some higher power besides a deity imbues humans with souls that can exist after the body has died. Another person might engage in some sort of pseudoscience that says an organism naturally leaves behind an energy imprint that can manifest as an orb or specter.