At what point in time does Revelations 4 & 5 take place?

Tigger Boy · Jul 8, 2023

Gary K said:
Hmmm. Quote the verses you think depict a court of law.

Good question Gary.

Perhaps at this time along this thread you understand that some of us understand that Daniel 7:9,10, add more details to the same heavenly event that John was show five centuries latter. It is Daniel who writes: vs.10, "The court was seated and the books were opened."

As I shared earlier, this heavenly event took place in 1798 at the end of the 1260 days, of which the little horn/papacy had been waging war against the saints and defeating them, until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgement [restraining order] in favor of the saints.(vss.21,22). (Vs.26) But the court will sit and is power [papacy] taken away in. [1798 temporarily] However, according to (Rev.13:3) the fatal wound inflicted in 1798 will be healed when the composite beast comes up out of the sea during the tribulation. (the papacy will be one of the seven heads/religions, along with the ten horns/kings that make up this beast. Too, the ten horns/kings are also the ten toes in Dan. 2 vision of the golden image, and the ten horns/kings of (Rev. 17:12)

So we have biblical confirmation that both Daniel and John were shown the setting up/early stages of the pre-advent judgement, being conducted in the heavenly court and judgements being made in the universes highest court of law. Would you agree?

Hope you find this helpful.

Tigger Boy · Jul 8, 2023

BobRyan said:
Dan 7

sequence of four empires in vs 1-7
11th horn detail in vs 8,11, 20,21, 24-27 persecuting for 1260 years,
Courtroom in vs 9-10 , 13-14, 22, 26 (but only removes little horn at some point after 1260 years but before 2nd coming in vs 27)

Bob more thoughts on your statement. You apparently do not agree with mainstream Adventists, and historical facts, in that the power of the papacy was broken in 1798, when the pope was dethroned and taken into captivity, a fatal wound according to (Rev.13:3). According to what Daniel saw, vss. 21,22 the horn/papacy was defeating the saints, "Until" the Ancient of Days set up court after, the time, times, and half a time had ended, 538-1798. The word "until" means up to the very point in time. Not some time after those days as you understand it.(vss. 25,26) If we desire to have prophecy reveal it's intended interpretation, we cannot alter the specification to fit our own private interpretations.This calls for humility on the part of all.

You have also stated in earlier post, that this heavenly court convened in 1844 according to Dan.8, which would make the 1260 years the pope waged war against the saints from 584-1844. History does not support this.

According to Rev. prophecies the papacy fatal wound will be healed, and the papacy will be one of the main players used of Satan during the tribulation. But he will be completely destroyed before Jesus comes as you say.

Gary K · Jul 9, 2023

Tigger Boy said:
Good question Gary.

Perhaps at this time along this thread you understand that some of us understand that Daniel 7:9,10, add more details to the same heavenly event that John was show five centuries latter. It is Daniel who writes: vs.10, "The court was seated and the books were opened."

As I shared earlier, this heavenly event took place in 1798 at the end of the 1260 days, of which the little horn/papacy had been waging war against the saints and defeating them, until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgement [restraining order] in favor of the saints.(vss.21,22). (Vs.26) But the court will sit and is power [papacy] taken away in. [1798 temporarily] However, according to (Rev.13:3) the fatal wound inflicted in 1798 will be healed when the composite beast comes up out of the sea during the tribulation. (the papacy will be one of the seven heads/religions, along with the ten horns/kings that make up this beast. Too, the ten horns/kings are also the ten toes in Dan. 2 vision of the golden image, and the ten horns/kings of (Rev. 17:12)

So we have biblical confirmation that both Daniel and John were shown the setting up/early stages of the pre-advent judgement, being conducted in the heavenly court and judgements being made in the universes highest court of law. Would you agree?

Hope you find this helpful.

I disagree. I was simply wrong in my understanding.

Tigger Boy · Jul 13, 2023

BobRyan said:
I agree that this is not the view of the seals that we see in Adventist material - but I don't see how this has anything to do with changing the IJ and 1844 start date.

Bob, this is a question you asked in your #32 post. Since that post I have come to understand what IJ stands for, Investigative Judgement. If you had read carefully what I posted in that same post of which you raise the question above, you should have know that I don't believe the IJ was move from 1844.

My point is the court room event mentioned in Dan.7:10, and Rev.4&5 was started in heaven in 1798, at the end of the Little horns power/11 horn, 1260 years (538-1798) reign over the saints. After the court was set up and Jesus was given sovereign power (Dan.7:14) he begins to open the seven seals according to chapter 6. Revisit the first three seals in that same post. The Holy Spirit had to lead the early reformers out of the darkness of the, previous 1260 years, of the "Dark Ages", by caring out the campaigns of the first three seals, in order that the forth seal, the investigative judgement could be understood. And that seal opened in 1844, as the investigative judgement began.

Another serious matter, this raises for our Historical Interpretation is, we teach that the seals cover the history of the church and the first seal opened in the first century A.D. How is that possible since Jesus received the book with seven seals in 1798???

BobRyan · Jul 13, 2023

Tigger Boy said:
I don't believe the IJ was move from 1844.

My point is the court room event mentioned in Dan.7:10, and Rev.4&5 was started in heaven in 1798, at the end of the Little horns power/11 horn, 1260 years (538-1798) reign over the saints. After the court was set up and Jesus was given sovereign power (Dan.7:14) he begins to open the seven seals according to chapter 6. Revisit the first three seals in that same post. The Holy Spirit had to lead the early reformers out of the darkness of the, previous 1260 years, of the "Dark Ages", by caring out the campaigns of the first three seals, in order that the forth seal, the investigative judgement could be understood. And that seal opened in 1844, as the investigative judgement began.

Another serious matter, this raises for our Historical Interpretation is, we teach that the seals cover the history of the church and the first seal opened in the first century A.D. How is that possible since Jesus received the book with seven seals in 1798???

The problem is in making the case that Jesus receives the book and begins opening the seals only after 1798. How do you get to that?

Tigger Boy · Jul 13, 2023

BobRyan said:
The problem is in making the case that Jesus receives the book and begins opening the seals only after 1798. How do you get to that?

BobRyan said:
BobRyan said:

Dan 7 shows us the heavenly courtroom and shows that it takes place at a time after the rise of the 11th horn of Dan 7, after the persecution of the saints and before the 2nd coming.

Dan 8 tells us that the Dan 7 courtroom event started in 1844.

Click to expand...

I believe Dan. 7 pinpoints the beginning of the court room event in heaven in 1798 as I have explained in earlier post. You hold to the believe it started in 1844, as you state in an earlier post of yours I have copied. But in either case, Rev. 6 continues laying out a chronological order of events in which Jesus begins to open the seals on the book which He was found worthy to open in chapter 5. Therefore, the first seal could not have opened during the first century A.D. as early expositors thought and of which the Millerites and latter Adventists assumed to be correct. Can you see our historical interpretation does not align with chronology within theses prophecies?

Tigger Boy · Sep 9, 2023

reddogs said:
Revelation 4 shows the same event as Revelation 20:11

Reddogs, as I reread your post the implications of what you posted did not get my attention at that time. I'm assuming you are Adventist as I, based on other post of yours I've read. It is my understanding that Rev. 20, is speaking of the Great White Throne Judgement which takes place after the millennial reign, which the saints are with Christ in heaven. Rev. 20 mentions the resurrection of the wicked whom must face their sentencing portion of their judgement, before they are cast into the burning like of fire, which is the second death. This is what Adventist teach and I believe this is correct. The heavenly event of Rev. 4 and 5 finds Jesus worthy to open the book sealed with the seven seals, and chapter six describes each seal. Adventist teach that the first seal was opened in the first century, which is why I'm questioning your statement that the timing of Rev. 4, 5 and 20 are the same. Care to explain?

reddogs said:

Tigger Boy · Apr 13, 2024

reddogs said:
Revelation 4 shows the same event as Revelation 20:11

Reddogs, really surprised with your thoughts on Rev. 4&5 being the same events as Rev. 20, the Great White Throne Judgement. Chapter 5, Christ is found worth to receive the Book of Life from the Father, which He wrote and sealed with the seven seals before the foundations of the world. Rev. 6, describes Christ opening the seals. Historicists, which you defend, claim the first seal opened in A.D. 31. Rev. 4:1-6:17 is one prophecy and flows in chronological order to the sixth seal, the return of Christ. Rev. 7:1-8:1, is another prophecy that flows in chronological order. This prophecy introduces the empowerment of the 144,000/ servant prophets. Who will proclaim the three angles messages that will separate the sheep from the goats during the trumpets judgments. A numberless multitude will embrace the gospel and gather around God's heavenly throne after the second coming. Note the last event in this prophecy Rev. 8:1, is the opening of the seventh seal.
One must understand that when Chapter and verse designation was done to the original manuscripts which had none. Translators did the best they could in determining when each one started and ended, however, they did not understand the law of chronology. As do many to this day. I think you are will aware the Judgement of Rev. 20 is after the 1,000 year reign were the saints sit in Judgement with Christ to determine the restitution the wicked most pay for for their sins. Note in Rev. 20:12, ..." and books[of deeds] were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books." [of deeds] By combing all the facts given in prophecies 4-6:17; 7-8:1, and 20, prophecy reveals the seventh seal on the book of life is broken during the Great White Throne Judgement. It is not used for judging the wicked nor the saints, since the book is still sealed 1,000 years after the first resurrection. What are your thoughts on Rev. 4 & 5 being the same as Rev. 20? Why do you think the Father wrote the book of life when it will not be used in judgement of mankind?

BobRyan · Apr 13, 2024

Tigger Boy said:
I think most of us would agree that at any time a prophetic event within any apocalyptic prophecy comes to fulfillment, that event becomes, "time stamped", however, not the entire prophecy for it may have other chronological events to follow. With that said, Revelation 4&5 reveal a heavenly, "court room scene". Assuming you think it has been fulfilled, what biblical support, would you give for that point in time?

1. Christ is already the Lamb of God - slain from the foundations of the world.
2. Christ already was born and then returned to heaven - as Rev 12 points out.
3. Everything in Rev 4 had already been the case at the time the vision of Revelation was given.
4. Only Rev 5:13 could not have happened yet since it declares that all flesh worships the one true God at some point.

Tigger Boy · Apr 13, 2024

BobRyan said:
1. Christ is already the Lamb of God - slain from the foundations of the world.
2. Christ already was born and then returned to heaven - as Rev 12 points out.
3. Everything in Rev 4 had already been the case at the time the vision of Revelation was given.
4. Only Rev 5:13 could not have happened yet.

Bob, agree with you on 1,2. By your statement in 4, I assume all of Rev. 5, is in the past but vs. 13, which I would agree is yet future. Question, how do you come to the conclusion that Rev. 4, & most of 5 is in the past, when John receives the vision, since no indication of timing is given in either chapter?

At what point in time does Revelations 4 & 5 take place?

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