At what point does 'Untrue' become 'True'?

Deadbolt said:

You really shouldn't play these semantic games. Creationists believe words have magical power. To his way of thinking it follows that getting the answer he wants = truth = win.

Click to expand...

Yes all it will do is confuse him even more.

We laugh but creationism is not really funny when you see the damage it can do and has already done, it's not funny at all.

Fancy123 said:

It asks the question why anyone would believe something when there is no evidence only words to back it up?
Could it have something to do with a need to believe?

Click to expand...

I have tons of personal information and have actually been spoken
to by demonic entities. But then they are only words typed here. I
don't expect you to believe me but there it is. Personal evidence.

Otherwise I probably wouldn't be a believer either.

Fancy123 said:

Did you have personal info to make you a believer or did the info only come once you were a believer?
Did you hear the voices before or after you believed?

Click to expand...

I've never heard voices and yeah before I was a believer.
I don't see what that would matter. If God wasn't there it
would be the same as being an unbeliever and I would have
no personal experiences.

Fancy123 said:

If you didn't hear voices how did the demonic entities speak to you?

Just because you believe in God doesn't mean there is a god, the only experiences you have had are the experiences you have talked yourself or been talked into believing.
You know that Allah is only in the minds of Muslims because Allah doesn't really exist, does he? Your God does but their's doesn't.

Click to expand...

Um, nope.

You seem very deep into denial. How does one talk themselves into
say, the burning bush? Answered prayer?

Have you even read the bible?

EternalDragon said:

Um, nope.

You seem very deep into denial. How does one talk themselves into
say, the burning bush? Answered prayer?

Click to expand...

How does someone talk themselves into believing stories in books? Not that difficult if someone really wants them to be true.

Answered prayer? Did you forget that no matter what happens, christians will conclude that a prayer was answered? Pray for the health of a loved one. If the loved one dies, it was God's will and the prayer was answered. If the loved one gets better, God answered the prayer.

Like a gambler, people tend to forget all of the unanswered prayers and only remember the answered ones.

Have you even read the bible?

Click to expand...

Have you read the Quran? The Vedas?

consol said:

If I am the only person to believe something does that make it true? of course not,
if I can get someone else to believe it, does that make it true? of course not,
if we can get 10,000 people to believe it, does that make it true? of course not,
if we can get 500,000,000 people to believe it, does that make it true? of course not,
not quite............
because from a religious point of view the answer would be: 500,000,000 people can't be wrong...

Some people do not understand that if something is not true, it's not true,
no matter how many people believe that it is.

Click to expand...

“All the hundreds of millions of people who, in their time, believed the Earth was flat never succeeded in unrounding it by an inch.” ― Isaac Asimov

Popular belief does not alter reality.

For instance:

At one time, the Aristotelean version of the 'World' (what we call the Universe) was accepted by just about everyone. The Earth - our planet - was the center of everything, and the Sun (our Sun, Sol), Moon and so forth revolved around the Earth. All the 'scientists' - in those days 'natural philosophers' agreed, the Church agreed, saying the Bible said so and so forth.

Somewhere in the past - eh - 400 to 500 years, the reality of the Sun being the center of the solar system, and the solar system being a rather minor part of everything became obvious. Then in the early part of the 20th Century, Edwin Hubble (and crew) made discoveries which made the Universe much, much bigger than our Galaxy and the solar system even more minor.

For instance:

At one time, all Western scientists believed in the phlogiston theory. In the last decade of the 18th Century, 'oxygen' came to the fore.

Perhaps in some future time, we will find something that rules out the Universe theory (I have no idea how) and possibly we will find out that 'oxygen' is a red herring as well. (No, I have no thought on what that might be.)

For instance:

Sir Issac Newton figured out the laws of gravitation. Then in the early years of the 20th Century, Albert Einstein discovered Newton's laws were correct, but ONLY in a special case; Earth's gravity field. Einstein discovered deeper rules, resulting in 'Relativistic Gravity'.

None of this depends on popular acceptance. It only depends on reproducible evidence. At least, under the rules of scientific methodology. I suppose the 'rules of scientific methodology' might be wrong, but they seem to work in practice; so I guess we'll have to shuffle along with them.

My underlying understandings of the Universe - such as they are - suggest there are 'truths' which are real and solid despite popular opinion. My understandings are based on the history of 'discovery'. Mathematics, for instance, seem to exist unseen, waiting to be discovered. (Pythagorus did not INVENT the hypotenuse theory; he discovered and developed it.) (By the way, it works for all triangles if one adds in the cosine of the opposite angle. Sort of like the addition to Newtonian gravity.)

Additionally, I know beyond doubt that all concepts cannot be 'proven' using scientific methods. Not everything in existence is material. (Notice I didn't write 'the Universe', I wrote 'existence'.)

Fancy123 said:

It asks the question why anyone would believe something when there is no evidence only words to back it up?
Could it have something to do with a need to believe?

Click to expand...

Words can be tested and demonstrated to be either true or false.

God's words is demonstrated to be true by those who know how to test them.

It's not our fault if you don't know how to test them.

Fancy123 said:

It asks the question why anyone would believe something when there is no evidence only words to back it up?
Could it have something to do with a need to believe?

Click to expand...

Are you talking about dark matter?

Doveaman said:

Words can be tested and demonstrated to be either true or false.

God's words is demonstrated to be true by those who know how to test them.

It's not our fault if you don't know how to test them.

Click to expand...

Does this "testing" differ significantly from the process of self-deception?

Hint: Bumping your own threads with an alt is not a very subtle way to hide your identity

Loudmouth said:

How does someone talk themselves into believing stories in books? Not that difficult if someone really wants them to be true.

Answered prayer? Did you forget that no matter what happens, christians will conclude that a prayer was answered? Pray for the health of a loved one. If the loved one dies, it was God's will and the prayer was answered. If the loved one gets better, God answered the prayer.

Like a gambler, people tend to forget all of the unanswered prayers and only remember the answered ones.

Click to expand...

How about when one prays for a sign from God and a light source
immediately appears where there should be none? Or when prayer is
specifically answered? Luck? Or the many prayers for safety of
missionaries and they actually see angels protecting them? Mass
delusion?

Yes, some prayers are not according to God's will so they don't get
answered. Do you expect every idle prayer to be answered?

Have you read the Quran? The Vedas?

Click to expand...

Actually I have.

Many, many people claimed to see Elvis after he died.

Guess what? Elvis is still dead.

lasthero said:

Many, many people claimed to see Elvis after he died.

Guess what? Elvis is still dead.

Click to expand...

Are there any I-seen-Elvis martyrs, that you know of?

Doveaman said:

Are you talking about dark matter?

Click to expand...

Are you under the impression astronomers and physicists suddenly started talking about something called "dark matter" with absolutely no evidence to start them off having that conversation?

Fancy123 said:

It asks the question why anyone would believe something when there is no evidence only words to back it up?

Click to expand...

Of course, refusing to see evidence is convenient. Or refusing to admit evidence exists, based on unsubstantiated assumption.

So why do you frequent a website called Christian Forums?

Fancy123 said:

Could it have something to do with a need to believe?

Click to expand...

Or, perhaps a fear of believing-seeing-understanding, not being able to deny?

AV1611VET said:

Are there any I-seen-Elvis martyrs, that you know of?

Click to expand...

How would martyrs make a difference?

Archie the Preacher said:

Of course, refusing to see evidence is convenient. Or refusing to admit evidence exists, based on unsubstantiated assumption.

So why do you frequent a website called Christian Forums?Or, perhaps a fear of believing-seeing-understanding, not being able to deny?

Click to expand...

What is this evidence that you allude to?

Paul of Eugene OR said:

Are you under the impression astronomers and physicists suddenly started talking about something called "dark matter" with absolutely no evidence to start them off having that conversation?

Click to expand...

There is a force at work that astronomers cannot detect the cause. They call that cause dark-matter. I call it God-energy.

Can you provide evidence it is dark-matter and not God-energy?

Davian said:

Does this "testing" differ significantly from the process of self-deception?

Click to expand...

Yup. You just have to know how to do the tests. The results of the tests are undeniable. Only a person who is deceived would deny them.