Astrophysics: what is / was the firmament made out of?

AV1611VET · May 8, 2010

HasturX said:
Which educated people? The ones who believe that invisible angels are around us or the educated people who think that cows are holy animals?

The "educated" people who think life begins @ birth.

HasturX · May 8, 2010

AV1611VET said:
The "educated" people who think life begins @ birth.

Don't tell me, let me guess, you think life begins when the stork arrives don't you?

The Penitent Man · May 8, 2010

Life begins at conception. The baby is already alive when it's born. The event of birth is not what begins the life of the child.

Split Rock · May 8, 2010

AV1611VET said:
The "educated" people who think life begins @ birth.

The Penitent Man said:
Life begins at conception. The baby is already alive when it's born. The event of birth is not what begins the life of the child.

The question of when "life begins" is something of a redherring. Life is a cycle. The sperm and ovum are both alive, just as the fertilized egg, the baby, and the adult who produces the sperm or ovum. There is no "beginning."

Chesterton · May 9, 2010

ArnautDaniel said:
You mean like Phaethon driving the chariot of the Sun into the earth...

...meaning what "larger truth" exactly?

Or Zeus turning into a bull and raping some girl?

What is the "larger truth" in the bull-girl rape exactly?

If you want those answers you can find them. There's been lots written about both I think. I believe Sigmund Freud wrote something significant about the rape of Europa. But I think your questions are just implying that there is no meaning in those, or that the meaning is something stupid or something. And that always could be the case. Men have come up with bad and pointless myths just as men have written bad and pointless poems, plays and novels. But there are also some poems, plays and novels which are very meaningful and insightful in regard to the human condition.

MorkandMindy · May 14, 2010

BranwenUerchLlyr said:
I took an ancient Hebrew scriptures class. Lets see if I can paraphrase..

The words/phrases used for the firmament were the same used to refer to a crude slab of metal used for hammering into a shield. It was based on Egyptian concepts of the cosmos, not comparable to anything known in modern times.

http://skepticblog.org/wp-content/uploads/heaven_of_heavens.jpg

6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8And God called the firmament Heaven

OK, so there's rain water above

9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

And one sea?

14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

The text seems to indicate there is only one firmament, and it has the name 'heaven'. Above it there is water, I don't see any evidence here the Bible speaks of a further heaven, though in an Epistle Paul speaks of having been taken up to the third heaven.

I guess it made sense in those days to speak of the water being above the stars so it didn't get in the way of seeing the stars. I might know more about Biblical astronomy if I'd gone to school in the deep South.
.

AV1611VET · May 14, 2010

MorkandMindy said:
The text seems to indicate there is only one firmament, and it has the name 'heaven'.

Genesis 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 2:1 ¶ Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Why is 'heaven' singular at the beginning of Creation and plural at the end?

Do you think it's because God created two more heavens in between?

LifeToTheFullest! · May 14, 2010

AV1611VET said:
Genesis 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 2:1 ¶ Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Why is 'heaven' singular at the beginning of Creation and plural at the end?

Do you think it's because God created two more heavens in between?

Nah, It's more likely a scribe either omitted or added an "s."

AV1611VET · May 14, 2010

LifeToTheFullest! said:
Nah, It's more likely a scribe either omitted or added an "s."

-- of course.

Doesn't Paul tell us that adding an ess can change the meaning of a passage?

Ga 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

LifeToTheFullest! · May 14, 2010

AV1611VET said:
-- of course.

Doesn't Paul tell us that adding an ess can change the meaning of a passage?

Ga 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

You forget, Christ had not seed. He was born of a virgin. Remember.
But it's also likely that the idea of a virgin birth was unknown to Paul, that's why he's a little confused when he wrote that.

AV1611VET · May 14, 2010

LifeToTheFullest! said:
You forget, Christ had not seed. He was born of a virgin. Remember.

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Jesus was not of male seed, since the Sin Nature is passed down via the male; otherwise He too would be in need of a Saviour.

LifeToTheFullest! said:
But it's also likely that the idea of a virgin birth was unknown to Paul, that's why he's a little confused when he wrote that.

[cue Austin Powers]: Riiight.

LifeToTheFullest! · May 14, 2010

AV1611VET said:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Jesus was not of male seed, since the Sin Nature is passed down via the male; otherwise He too would be in need of a Saviour.

[cue Austin Powers]: Riiight.

Jesus was not of the line of David?

AV1611VET · May 14, 2010

LifeToTheFullest! said:
Jesus was not of the line of David?

Through Mary, not through Joseph.

LifeToTheFullest! · May 14, 2010

Whose line was Joseph from?

LifeToTheFullest! · May 14, 2010

I thought Jesus mother was from line of Aaron, and Joseph from David? Am I mistaken?

Wasn't Jesus actually a "double" messiah, priestly and royal?

LifeToTheFullest! · May 14, 2010

AV1611VET said:
Through Mary, not through Joseph.

Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Matthew 1:2-15 ... alot of begatting...

Matthew 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

What am I missing here?

MorkandMindy · May 14, 2010

AV1611VET said:
Genesis 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 2:1 ¶ Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Why is 'heaven' singular at the beginning of Creation and plural at the end?

Do you think it's because God created two more heavens in between?

OK, does that give one firmament with two functions; the stars are fixed to it and it separates the water above from the water below, and three heavens?

LifeToTheFullest! · May 14, 2010

AV,

Stumped you, didn't I?

AV1611VET · May 14, 2010

LifeToTheFullest! said:
Whose line was Joseph from?

LifeToTheFullest! said:

I thought Jesus mother was from line of Aaron, and Joseph from David? Am I mistaken?

Click to expand...

David had two sons (more actually, but for this post, two): Solomon and Nathan.

Solomon → Joseph
Nathan → Mary

LifeToTheFullest! said:
Wasn't Jesus actually a "double" messiah, priestly and royal?

Of three major positions in the Old Testament: prophet, priest and king, one could hold two of three possible dual offices:

priest-prophet (Samuel)
king-prophet (David)

But no one in the Old Testament was allowed to hold the office of priest-king, which was held exclusively for the Messiah.

Two men tried it in the Old Testament, and both men immediately incurred God's wrath:

Saul in 1 Samuel 13:

8 ¶ And he tarried seven days, according to the set time that Samuel had appointed: but Samuel came not to Gilgal; and the people were scattered from him.
9 And Saul said, Bring hither a burnt offering to me, and peace offerings. And he offered the burnt offering.
10 And it came to pass, that as soon as he had made an end of offering the burnt offering, behold, Samuel came; and Saul went out to meet him, that he might salute him.
11 And Samuel said, What hast thou done? And Saul said, Because I saw that the people were scattered from me, and that thou camest not within the days appointed, and that the Philistines gathered themselves together at Michmash;
12 Therefore said I, The Philistines will come down now upon me to Gilgal, and I have not made supplication unto the LORD: I forced myself therefore, and offered a burnt offering.
13 And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever.
14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the LORD commanded thee.

Uzziah in 2 Chronicles 26:

16 ¶ But when he was strong, his heart was lifted up to his destruction: for he transgressed against the LORD his God, and went into the temple of the LORD to burn incense upon the altar of incense.
17 And Azariah the priest went in after him, and with him fourscore priests of the LORD, that were valiant men:
18 And they withstood Uzziah the king, and said unto him, It appertaineth not unto thee, Uzziah, to burn incense unto the LORD, but to the priests the sons of Aaron, that are consecrated to burn incense: go out of the sanctuary; for thou hast trespassed; neither shall it be for thine honour from the LORD God.
19 Then Uzziah was wroth, and had a censer in his hand to burn incense: and while he was wroth with the priests, the leprosy even rose up in his forehead before the priests in the house of the LORD, from beside the incense altar.
20 And Azariah the chief priest, and all the priests, looked upon him, and, behold, he was leprous in his forehead, and they thrust him out from thence; yea, himself hasted also to go out, because the LORD had smitten him.
21 And Uzziah the king was a leper unto the day of his death, and dwelt in a several house, being a leper; for he was cut off from the house of the LORD: and Jotham his son was over the king's house, judging the people of the land.

Note that Melchizedek (Jesus pre-incarnate) was both King of Salem and Priest of the Most High God.

Ge 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

As they say: Jesus is in the OT concealed and the NT revealed.

AV1611VET · May 14, 2010

LifeToTheFullest! said:
Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Matthew 1:2-15 ... alot of begatting...

Matthew 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

What am I missing here?

Three words:

Lu 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

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