Astounded (moved from Christian Philosophy and Ethics)

Avniel · Aug 29, 2010

People do abuse the church's money there is no reason for a pastor to have a mansion and people in their congregation are on section or about to get evicted.

However when I tithes I give to God not man and I will let God do his job and judge them not me.

Greenling · Aug 29, 2010

However when I tithes I give to God not man and I will let God do his job and judge them not me

Avniel - are you telling us God has a bank account we can pay directly into? Or do you hand it to him in person?

And you don't hand your money to someone who says they'll pass it on to him for you?

ebia · Aug 29, 2010

It's interesting when people argue against X based entirely on the small proportion of abuses.

Mathetes the kerux · Aug 29, 2010

paige_w said:
But you can't tell people that they have to pay to be part of a faith. That God won't love them unless they pay money.

Well if you consider that Jesus taught that where you put your money portrays where you heart is . . . and that part and parcel of the covenant community is that the covenant people give to the work of ministry . . .

then the picture becomes pretty clear.

BUT people are not to give because of compulsion . . . so if they feel so, then really what is in question is something deeper in the heart that they are not giving to God. The ideal is JOYFUL givers . . . people who delight to give because of what they have been given. This actually makes the tithe a relflection of the person's grasp and appreciation of what God has done in the cross . . . in this light . . . all true believers should WANT to give . . . and be GRATEFUL AND HAPPY TO DO SO. Those who arent are either immature and have something to learn or, are worse yet, not even of the covenant community and have not been gripped by the cross at all . . . scary really

Mathetes the kerux · Aug 29, 2010

Greenling said:
Avniel - are you telling us God has a bank account we can pay directly into? Or do you hand it to him in person?

And you don't hand your money to someone who says they'll pass it on to him for you?

Nope . . . not what is being said at all . . .

razeontherock · Aug 29, 2010

ebia said:
Churches don't tithe, people tithe. (Well, churches can and should give some of their money away, but I'm not sure that's what you are talking about).

I actually read the OP literally, as churches themselves giving 10% of their gross revenue, off the top.

HEARTILY RECCOMMENDED!!!

You can NOT out-give G-d

PreachersWife2004 · Aug 29, 2010

paige_w said:
But you can't tell people that they have to pay to be part of a faith. That God won't love them unless they pay money.

Churches that use this are preaching a false message. One does not have to tithe to be a Christian, but one can be a good Christian by tithing. Tithing is more about sacrifice then it is about giving money to the church.

In Mark 14, we read about the reaction of the people to the woman who poured a bottle of expensive perfume on Jesus. They said

"Why this waste of perfume? It could have been sold for more than a year's wages and the money given to the poor." And they rebuked her harshly.

and Jesus answered them

"Leave her alone," said Jesus. "Why are you bothering her? She has done a beautiful thing to me. The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me.

and then we read about the widow:

Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a fraction of a penny.

Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on."

OldWiseGuy · Aug 29, 2010

Strict 'tithing' represents a return to the written law. Jesus said that if anyone offends in any part they have broken the whole law. Therefore any who do not fully tithe have broken the whole law, and are under the penalty of the law. Is that what the new testament church teaches? Paul said the law is 'holy, just, and good' (note the descending order of spiritual importance (God declares the 'end' from the beginning). Tithing, when first instituted, was 'good', but is it now 'holy'? What would now make the 'letter' of the law 'holy' when God revealed that the law (the 'letter' thereof) is the "administration of death"? owg

OldWiseGuy · Aug 29, 2010

Phinehas2 said:
In fact tithing is rooted in Abraham, in the order of Melchizedek. not the law given throiugh Moses.

Yes, but in the same way that animal sacrifices are 'rooted' in Abel.

tansy · Aug 30, 2010

Interestingly enough, in the church I used to go to, they used to talk about tithing (or maybe 'giving' would be a better word) what you had...that is, some people might have very little monetarily, but they would give a lot of their time, skills etc...in other words, I suppose, what some have in one area, another has in a different area...all valuable contribtions?

Jase · Aug 30, 2010

Something else I tend to wonder. Is tithing really applicable to us today? It seemed appropriate in the old days, because that was really the only way to give money to charities or outreach programs AFAIK. But now we can directly give money to millions of charities around the world, without the middleman. Unless you are specifically donating to a church to help with repairs or something, why does the church need our money?

ebia · Aug 30, 2010

Jase said:
Something else I tend to wonder. Is tithing really applicable to us today? It seemed appropriate in the old days, because that was really the only way to give money to charities or outreach programs AFAIK. But now we can directly give money to millions of charities around the world, without the middleman. Unless you are specifically donating to a church to help with repairs or something, why does the church need our money?

Maintenance, insurance, stipends and expenses of pastors and administrators, heating, lighting, equipment, licences, books and resources, outreach programs, community service programs, photocopying, costs of compliance, ...

PreachersWife2004 · Aug 30, 2010

Jase said:
Something else I tend to wonder. Is tithing really applicable to us today? It seemed appropriate in the old days, because that was really the only way to give money to charities or outreach programs AFAIK. But now we can directly give money to millions of charities around the world, without the middleman. Unless you are specifically donating to a church to help with repairs or something, why does the church need our money?

ebia said:
Maintenance, insurance, stipends and expenses of pastors and administrators, heating, lighting, equipment, licences, books and resources, outreach programs, community service programs, photocopying, costs of compliance, ...

Pretty much what ebia said. Churches don't run themselves. There's still some taxes to pay, there's still materials to buy, there's still a pastor's salary to pay. How else is the church supposed to exist, if not from the generosity of her members?

Jase · Aug 30, 2010

PreachersWife2004 said:
Pretty much what ebia said. Churches don't run themselves. There's still some taxes to pay, there's still materials to buy, there's still a pastor's salary to pay. How else is the church supposed to exist, if not from the generosity of her members?

That's fine if a church is being genuine with the use of the money. I was just curious, since I don't attend church. I guess I'm just very skeptical because of the creation of the "Megachurches" where members "generosity" goes to paying for the 2 million dollar gold inlaid front doors, or the Pastors private jet and 7 acre mansion.

Synagogue costs money to hold a seat, it's about $2000 a year for the one near me.

ebia · Aug 30, 2010

Jase said:
That's fine if a church is being genuine with the use of the money. I was just curious, since I don't attend church. I guess I'm just very skeptical because of the creation of the "Megachurches" where members "generosity" goes to paying for the 2 million dollar gold inlaid front doors, or the Pastors private jet and 7 acre mansion.

It's not helpful to evaluate anything based only on extreme abuses. There are far more pastors taking modest stipends than millionaires.

Address the abuses by addressing the abuses.

PreachersWife2004 · Aug 30, 2010

Jase said:
That's fine if a church is being genuine with the use of the money. I was just curious, since I don't attend church. I guess I'm just very skeptical because of the creation of the "Megachurches" where members "generosity" goes to paying for the 2 million dollar gold inlaid front doors, or the Pastors private jet and 7 acre mansion.

Synagogue costs money to hold a seat, it's about $2000 a year for the one near me.

Normal average pastors don't have private jets and 7 acre mansions. Most normal pastors are lucky to have a parsonage that totals over 1000 square feet. Normal pastors make far less than the bloated figures the media puts out. Actually, there's a thread on this very subject somewhere around here where people were talking about pastors' salaries. We're not rich by a long shot...we hit below the poverty level in almost every sense of the word. We have a parsonage, but that also means we have zero equity and we're pretty much out of luck when hubby retires.

Our church puts out in the weekly bulletin how much money they need to take in each week to pay the bills, meaning the electric bills, the water bills, the weekly stipend for the organist, the payment for the janitors, the pastor's salary and currently we're paying off having the organ completely redone. Aside from the organ repair, those are bare bones expenses. The church asks for no more than that. The organ repair is additional and anyone who wants to donate for that can, but there is no obligation.

Our ladies society has numerous ways in which they aid and assist the poor or homebound. They do it all by donating their time and talents. Some people designate that their offerings go to the Ladies' society, which is fine, but for the most part, they operate independently (cost-wise) from the church. Same with the youth group and the Christian Education committees.

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