Assume you are wrong.

[Uphill Battle]

Just sitting here thinking.

Assume for a moment that you and your church "have it wrong." (please let's not have "it can never happen, we are right because.... posts.)

Assume that your faith in certain teachings are completely erroneous.

For example, Protestants, assume that Mary is Sinless, Perpetual virgin, etc....

Catholics, assume that she is not.

Or, it could be the communion of saints. Whatever. The dogma or teaching doesn't really matter.


but given the assumption that your church/denomination is wrong, and you discover it, who do you think has the most serious ramifications for BEING wrong?

Two scenarios spring to mind.

you discover you are wrong here, on earth, how does it affect your faith?

and second, if it is not discovered on earth, but you are standing before Christ, and have discovered the error, what do you think the ramifications for being wrong in your instance is?

Posted this in Mariology, because inevitably, that is what people will end up talking about, and they'd just have to move it anyways.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

well, for me, since I don't have faith in a 'church'...I guess me finding out I am wrong in either place isn't going to affect my faith...but I would have to plead guilty and ask for forgiveness. That is why I believe trusting in Jesus and not an institution/church/denomination is a better idea.

 

[vrunca]

Ok, from my standpoint and I know that you don't want this to be a "I'm right because..." At the same time though, the knowledge that the Catholic Church is The Church, founded by Christ, limits my ability to make such an assumption. What I can do and I truly mean this in no disrespect is to say, what is the ramification for others who do not belong to The Catholic Church. (And I say I mean no disrespect, because I would hope that you all are as strong in the beliefs of your own church to say the same about the Catholic Church.)

Anyway, it does talk about this in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, I am not going to find it right now, I do not have time, maybe later... But for those that are ignorant to the teachings of The Catholic Church and her beliefs, God is understanding and forgiving. God is not a God of hatered, but of love. And the Catholic Church does not believe in anyway that if you are not Catholic, you are going to hell, which is how I believe also.

Now if a person figures this out while still here, mind, body and soul on earth...I would hope that it would shake their faith to a point of conversion. But there are many people and we see it constantly on these boards who have so much pride in their hearts that they are not attempting to see what others say and accept this (and no I don't mean, change their beliefs, but accept it as anothers beliefs), as truth to that person. Instead it is turned to disrespect and defilement and hurtful, pridefilled responses or more times than not outright lies. And that is something that I'm sure would anger God, but can be forgiven, if one would only open their hearts to God's love.

Does this mean in anyway that I believe that the non-Catholic churches are not right, or are hellbound and lost to satan? No!!! I have a lot of love and respect for others beliefs, which is why I ask questions and question answers with respect and not defile a certain belief system.

But I also most of all, love and respect and follow the teachings of the Catholic Faith....so I will defend it to the end. I also love very much the Blessed Mother, and that is why I get so angry when others disrespect and defile the Mother of God....it outright hurts us, it is like us tearing up your mother.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

So, Veronica, what you are saying...is that anyone outside the Catholic denomination has no chance in hell of knowing God, being in fellowship with Him? Going to heaven NONE of it? RIGHT? Is that what you are saying?

 

[B16uRock]

Two scenarios spring to mind.

you discover you are wrong here, on earth, how does it affect your faith?

Wow, this actually happened to me, and I correct my error, and became Catholic.

Now, assuming I am right, what do you think your ramifications will be for being wrong?

 

[sunlover1]

Assume that your faith in certain teachings are completely erroneous.

For example, Protestants, assume that Mary is Sinless, Perpetual virgin, etc....

Alright, I do always try to keep my
mind open because it's easy to be deceived.

but given the assumption that your church/denomination is wrong, and you discover it, who do you think has the most serious ramifications for BEING wrong?

Perpetual virginity and Mary being
sinfree only?

you discover you are wrong here, on earth, how does it affect your faith?

Those two items only?
Not much affect.
I might read the Bible differently

and second, if it is not discovered on earth, but you are standing before Christ, and have discovered the error, what do you think the ramifications for being wrong in your instance is?

None, that I can think of.
I don't dishonor mary.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Ok, from my standpoint and I know that you don't want this to be a "I'm right because..." At the same time though, the knowledge that the Catholic Church is The Church, founded by Christ, limits my ability to make such an assumption. What I can do and I truly mean this in no disrespect is to say, what is the ramification for others who do not belong to The Catholic Church. (And I say I mean no disrespect, because I would hope that you all are as strong in the beliefs of your own church to say the same about the Catholic Church.)

Anyway, it does talk about this in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, I am not going to find it right now, I do not have time, maybe later... But for those that are ignorant to the teachings of The Catholic Church and her beliefs, God is understanding and forgiving. God is not a God of hatered, but of love. And the Catholic Church does not believe in anyway that if you are not Catholic, you are going to hell, which is how I believe also.

Now if a person figures this out while still here, mind, body and soul on earth...I would hope that it would shake their faith to a point of conversion. But there are many people and we see it constantly on these boards who have so much pride in their hearts that they are not attempting to see what others say and accept this (and no I don't mean, change their beliefs, but accept it as anothers beliefs), as truth to that person. Instead it is turned to disrespect and defilement and hurtful, pridefilled responses or more times than not outright lies. And that is something that I'm sure would anger God, but can be forgiven, if one would only open their hearts to God's love.

Does this mean in anyway that I believe that the non-Catholic churches are not right, or are hellbound and lost to satan? No!!! I have a lot of love and respect for others beliefs, which is why I ask questions and question answers with respect and not defile a certain belief system.

But I also most of all, love and respect and follow the teachings of the Catholic Faith....so I will defend it to the end. I also love very much the Blessed Mother, and that is why I get so angry when others disrespect and defile the Mother of God....it outright hurts us, it is like us tearing up your mother.

a kind post.

With respect, the "knowledge" that the RCC is THE church is a BELIEF, not a fact.

 

[simonthezealot]

Anyway, it does talk about this in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, I am not going to find it right now, I do not have time, maybe later...

Don't waste your time if it isn't supported by scripture it doesn't matter anyway.

But for those that are ignorant to the teachings of The Catholic Church and her beliefs, God is understanding and forgiving. God is not a God of hatered, but of love. And the Catholic Church does not believe in anyway that if you are not Catholic, you are going to hell, which is how I believe also.

I am not ignorant to Catholic teaching, just opposed! am I going to hell by their book?
CofTrent would surely indicate that, or Vat2 I forget at this moment.

Also! here is one of the keys to whether your going to hell or not; knowing and understanding...

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

But there are many people and we see it constantly on these boards who have so much pride in their hearts that they are not attempting to see what others say and accept this (and no I don't mean, change their beliefs, but accept it as anothers beliefs), as truth to that person. Instead it is turned to disrespect and defilement and hurtful, pridefilled responses or more times than not outright lies. And that is something that I'm sure would anger God, but can be forgiven, if one would only open their hearts to God's love.

If its wrong we shouldn't accept...
we we're instructed that...
2 Tim 3:16-17
16All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work.

And to correct our brothers who are in error, with scripture.

 

[sunlover1]

Wow, this actually happened to me, and I correct my error, and became Catholic.

Hi B16uRock,

Just out of curiosity, what made you
change your mind?
Because I did the opposite.
I was Catholic, and walked away from it.

thanks in advance,
sunlover

 

[simonthezealot]

Hi B16uRock,

Just out of curiosity, what made you
change your mind?
Because I did the opposite.
I was Catholic, and walked away from it.

thanks in advance,
sunlover

Sunlover FYI ex-catholics have a bad name on the Catholic forums, not sure why?

 

[setmeonfire]

Does this mean in anyway that I believe that the non-Catholic churches are not right, or are hellbound and lost to satan? No!!!

veronica, if you look hard enough and maybe with some help from google youll find in the catechism and numerous papal bulls, you will find the catholic church says that you have to be under the authority of the pope to have salvation.

acts 4:12 "salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved (Christ)."

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Does this mean in anyway that I believe that the non-Catholic churches are not right, or are hellbound and lost to satan? No!!!

veronica, if you look hard enough in the catechism and numerous papal bulls, you will find the catholic church says that you have to be under the authority of the pope to have salvation.

NO! Say it isn't so! See that is what I am having a difficult time with. WHY???? Goodness...that is NOT the Word of God...Popes aren't even MENTIONED in the Bible...never mind have to be under one for salvation........I need to go and pray....this is really bothering me.

 

[Angeldove97]

While I know I don't have everything right, I have faith that God strengthens me in wisdom every day... basically, since I seek Him every day, I continue to grow in faith at the rate He's fixed for me.

So no I don't think there would be any ramifications for what I believe now that may be wrong... when I find out, I'll research it more and grow to have a strong foundation on what the Bible says and how I feel the Lord is leading me. I can repent for not following correctly and keep on living in the faith.

I was Protestant (who grew up Russian Orthodox) for a few years and missed having such things as a difference belief in Mary and the Saints, Transubstantiation, etc... I felt that I was missing something. The Lord lead me to the Catholic Church and I found what I was looking for.

He leads us all if we call on Him

 

[setmeonfire]

your right beloved, popes arent in the bible, which will be argued im sure. but dont get frustrated. praying is a good thing. lets be gentle also towards other denomonations. i have been where you are right now. TRUST ME!!

 

[Angeldove97]

veronica, if you look hard enough and maybe with some help from google youll find in the catechism and numerous papal bulls, you will find the catholic church says that you have to be under the authority of the pope to have salvation.

acts 4:12 "salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved (Christ)."

This is not the case:

[FONT=Verdana,Helvetica,Arial][SIZE=-1][Pope] John Paul's historic pronouncement has been slow in filtering down to the faithful in both the Catholic and Protestant world. Surprisingly, it is not really a new doctrine for Catholics. Paragraph 161 of the Catholic Catechism states:[/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana,Helvetica,Arial][SIZE=-1] Believing in Jesus Christ an in the One who sent Him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. 'Since without faith it is impossible to please [God]' and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, now will anyone obtain eternal life 'but he who endures to the end'
[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Helvetica,Arial][SIZE=-1]The Catechism quotes Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him."[/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana,Helvetica,Arial][SIZE=-1]Justification is different than salvation. Justification is the process by which we draw closer to God and become more like Christ by obeying the Holy Spirit to fulfil God's purpose for our lives. The Catechism states clearly that there are no works we can do to achieve justification without first being saved by faith.[/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana,Helvetica,Arial][SIZE=-1]The Catechism then quotes Jesus's statement from both Matthew and Revelation. Matthew 13:13 says "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." This does not mean that we can lose our salvation, it means that the real test of our salvation is not whether we simply mouth the words that we accept Christ but whether we have truly accepted Christ in our hearts. True faith changes your life for your whole life, and is manifested by the good works you do in obedience to the Holy Spirit which you can only receive by true faith.[/SIZE][/FONT]​

Link: http://www.citizensoldier.org/Popesalvationbyfaith.html

 

[setmeonfire]

'For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained.'" Pg. 215, #816

#846 is titled "outside the church there is no salvation"

#862 talking of the position of pope..."the bishops have by divine institutuiontaken the place of the apostles as pastorsof the Church, in such wise that whoever listens to them listens to Christ and whoever despises them despises Christand him who sent Christ"

 

[sunlover1]

'For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained.'" Pg. 215, #816

#846 is titled "outside the church there is no salvation"

#862 talking of the position of pope..."the bishops have by divine institutuiontaken the place of the apostles as pastorsof the Church, in such wise that whoever listens to them listens to Christ and whoever despises them despises Christand him who sent Christ"

Not from the Bible .

I don't despise Christ.

And:
Acts 4:12
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name
under heaven given among men,
whereby we must be saved.

 

[icedtea]

you discover you are wrong here, on earth, how does it affect your faith?

and second, if it is not discovered on earth, but you are standing before Christ, and have discovered the error, what do you think the ramifications for being wrong in your instance is?

.

That is a mind trip. I was brought up Catholic and felt no Holy Spirit and God wasn't listening, only had fear.
I am a christian now and feel joy and peace and know God personally and fear is all gone.
How would it affect my faith on earth? I guess the joy would leave, and I would be worried of sinning every moment, and feel my works mattered.
If I found out after I saw Jesus? I would say, boy you really didn't want us to be happy in church on earth, did You?
This is, as you said, a "what if."

 

[setmeonfire]

catechism of the catholic church

 

[Mary of Bethany]

Can we please not turn this into a Protestant vs Catholic thread?

How about this, Uphill Battle? The things you mentioned in your OP are not absolutely central to salvation. But what if one's church's beliefs about salvation are wrong? What if, for instance, the teaching of "once saved, always saved" is wrong? What if one finds out that "ordinances" are, after all, Sacraments, and are therefore important.

These are the sort of things that led me out of the Baptist church and eventually to Orthodoxy.



Mary