Ask me about Islaam

formy said:

I don't think simple math is a human idea.

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Maybe you're right, but then why does God have to fit within or correspond to anything we know of reality? He's the creator of reality so He must be outside of and "bigger" than reality, right?

It is we creatures who are limited to being one person in one being, but God is not like us. And we are stuck in our four dimensions, and He is not. When you say the Trinity is illogical, you're making God too small, you're making Him like us.

Personally, I think God takes far more forms than the mere Trinity- perhaps too many forms to count, knowing God and the fact He's omnipotent- although, I do believe the Trinity are the most widely known forms of God to humans.

[FONT=&quot]The argument that Christianity is polytheistic because “1+1+1=3” is based on a faulty premise. Math is based on numbers which are finite and God is not. To argue this way I would have to believe that Allah is finite just like the argument presented, that Allah is 1 in the numerical sense of 1, to argue in this vain only limits God. Christians believe in a "threefold oneness," that God is one, Jesus and the Father are one [John 10:30] or that when you lie to the Holy Spirit you are lying to God [Acts 5] since all three are one.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
To claim that Christians believe in more then one God or we somehow fit the description of shirk is false and intellectually dishonest, I can say with faith, "hear Oh Israel, the Lord thy God is one!"[/FONT]

formy said:

this is exactly how the Pagans of Makkah used to pray, they used to talk to Mannat, Alat, even Abraham and say "O mannat pray for us to Allah" "O Ibrahim pray for us" etc

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Is there any proof that pagans of Arabia prayed for intercessions of Abraham? I hardly doubt it. If these pagans were indeed Abrahamic, then their acceptance and influence of Islam is inevitable. Talk about shooting one's self in the foot.

formy said:

how are you 100% sure that she can hear you? or is she all-hearing like God?

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How are you 100% sure that Allah hears you when you do your daily 5 time rituals, going through the motions?

formy said:

So Christian trinity contradict simple math.

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Why? Do you usually define Allah with math in Quran? Is math divine? Is it from God? Did God invent math?

formy said:

I don't think simple math is a human idea.
(Read in the name of your Lord Who created.Created man out of leech.Read and your Lord is Most Honorable, He Who taught (the use of) the pen,Taught man that which he knew not. )

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Mathematics is the science and study of quantity, structure, space, and change. So where does it say in this verse that God taught math to man before he knew math? Since when Greeks worshipped Allah?

formy said:

did you know one of your Saints is actually a heretic in your definition because he never believed in Trinity or Jesus is god but he is one of many saints of the catholic Church.

does that make anyone talking to him and requesting a prayer a polytheist?

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We don't have time for empty talk and irrelevant claims. Names, times, locations, talk some substance. Catholic Church always believed and taught God as Trinity, there is not one instance in Christian history that Church didn't do so. Such heretic could never be canonized as a saint.

JM said:

[FONT=&quot]The argument that Christianity is polytheistic because “1+1+1=3” is based on a faulty premise. Math is based on numbers which are finite and God is not. [/FONT]

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Therefore we should tell muslims God is 3/0...

formy said:

did you know one of your Saints is actually a heretic in your definition because he never believed in Trinity or Jesus is god but he is one of many saints of the catholic Church.

does that make anyone talking to him and requesting a prayer a polytheist?

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The argument that Saint is a heretic is intellectually dishonest. As a heretic would not be a Saint.

Also the argument that requesting a prayer from a Saint=worship is intellectually dishonest.

So far you have confirmed my conviction that Islam is a false religion.

JM said:

[FONT=&quot]The argument that Christianity is polytheistic because “1+1+1=3” is based on a faulty premise. Math is based on numbers which are finite and God is not. To argue this way I would have to believe that Allah is finite just like the argument presented, that Allah is 1 in the numerical sense of 1, to argue in this vain only limits God. Christians believe in a "threefold oneness," that God is one, Jesus and the Father are one [John 10:30] or that when you lie to the Holy Spirit you are lying to God [Acts 5] since all three are one.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]To claim that Christians believe in more then one God or we somehow fit the description of shirk is false and intellectually dishonest, I can say with faith, "hear Oh Israel, the Lord thy God is one!"[/FONT]

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So is it fair to say that the Son and the Holy Spirit are aspects of God? Special ways that he reveals himself for our benefit?
.
They are not separate beings?
.

formy said:

did you know one of your Saints is actually a heretic in your definition because he never believed in Trinity or Jesus is god but he is one of many saints of the catholic Church.

does that make anyone talking to him and requesting a prayer a polytheist?

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Most of the time, this guy makes me laugh. I know it's not intentional, but still. The things this guy comes out with, you might think he was educated in Saudi Arabia or something. Oh, wait...

formy said:

what about this:

""holy mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, Amen.""

this is exactly how the Pagans of Makkah used to pray, they used to talk to Mannat, Alat, even Abraham and say "O mannat pray for us to Allah" "O Ibrahim pray for us" etc

in Islamic definition it is worshiping.

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Sa what about it?!!
Catholics no more worship Mary than Moslems worship Mohammed.
Esteem does not equate to worship.

We fully recognize that Mary is not divinity, just as Moslems recognize that Mohammed is human, like her even.

Now maybe Moslems are of the type not to afford their most saintly the highest respect, esteem and honor, as Catholics do to Mary. Maybe they are of the type that believe that there are no people in heaven and that all are dead, and there is therefore a complete disconnect between the earthbound and those in heaven. Maybe they are of the type that they find it sacrilege to ask someone else to pray for them to God, but as Catholics we are not so inclined.
We pray for others, and want others to pray for us all the time. We especially want the most saintly, those most close to God in their words and their deeds, to pray for us.
So if that is worship, then we worship many, many, many, many others, and not just Mary.
We ask people to pray for us. That is what we do. If Moslems and others are not so inclined, then that is their perogative too. As long as they don't carry on implying that we who ask others to pray for us are therefore worshipping them as we worship God, then all the power to them in declining the prayers of the most saintly among us.

We do not worship Mary as a Moslem may worship God. We do not worship Mary in the normal sense of the word 'worship', but only by the special Islamic definition of the word, as you are now defining it.

Please always be clear then that Islam now defines 'worship' something other than the normal usage, so that you do not continue to mislead and deceive others about what it is that Catholics actually do.

We ask Mary—and everybody else that might want to— to pray for us yes.
But we do not therefore believe that Mary, (and everybody else too), is therefore a Goddess on that account.

Honest Muslims really ought to make themselves clear on that point, when they state without qualifications that Catholics and EO worship Mary. It is dishonest to use the word 'worship' to make it appear as if Christians worship Mary as a goddess.


And we do not differentiate from the saints that have passed on, and the saints that walk the earth now with us. For Jesus himself answers the Saducees that the God of Abraham and Isaac is a God of the living and not the dead.

Abraham and Mary are as alive as you and I, more so even, the stain of sin removed from the souls of the eternally saved!
That is the good news of the Christian gospel. Life in God carries on, erases the stain of sin and the sting of death.

We understand God to be a God of the living and not of the dead, that the saint are alive in Heaven and very close to God indeed—though still human of course— and that we can beseech saints to pray for us on our behalf.

If such veneration and connectedness to good people of all ages is outside of the scope of Islam, that is all well and fine.
But if the implication of Koranic passages is that we equate Mary the same divinity as we do Jesus, then the Koran is clearly in error.
Mainstream orthodox teaching of the universal catholic church has never taught that Mary is anything but a humble girl who gave birth to the Lord our God, Christ Jesus of Nazareth.

So it now becomes a lie for Moslems to imply and to carry on saying that we worship both Mary and Jesus without differentiation.

We do not.

We worship Jesus, who is the one True God, creator of the heavens and the earth, of all things seen and unseen,

and we pray to Mary.

To Muslims, the Catholic mentality of praying to Mary partly derives from this (brilliant) story from the New Testament:

23 That same day Jesus was approached by some Sadducees—religious leaders who say there is no resurrection from the dead. They posed this question: 24 “Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies without children, his brother should marry the widow and have a child who will carry on the brother’s name.’[b] 25 Well, suppose there were seven brothers. The oldest one married and then died without children, so his brother married the widow. 26 But the second brother also died, and the third brother married her. This continued with all seven of them. 27 Last of all, the woman also died. 28 So tell us, whose wife will she be in the resurrection? For all seven were married to her.”

29 Jesus replied, “Your mistake is that you don’t know the Scriptures, and you don’t know the power of God. 30 For when the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage. In this respect they will be like the angels in heaven.
31 “But now, as to whether there will be a resurrection of the dead—haven’t you ever read about this in the Scriptures? Long after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had died, God said,[c] 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[d] So he is the God of the living, not the dead.” 33 When the crowds heard him, they were astounded at his teaching. (Matthew 22:23-33)

Can't say I agree with it myself, but it does make sense.

formy said:

So Christian trinity contradict simple math.

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1+1+1=3
but
1*1*1 is still equal to 1.

Indeed 1 to the exponent infinity is still one even.



But this is all semantics and all rather silly.



Christians have never defined Trinity as three gods. Only people otuside of the faith carry on this way, defiing what we believe into some kind of strawman as it suits their own arguments for their contrary cause.

Ultimately Catholics define God as Mystery, someone who is beyond our ability to comprehend fully. Trinity is an expression of God that aids in our comprehension of how the Divine touches us and relates to us. Trinity serves as an analogy that helps us make sense of how a fully transcendent God, on the outside of his creation as any creator must be, manifests himself and makes himself available for us, his created, as God Incarnate, and as Spirit who fills us,and animates us as the very breath of life, and creates us into the hands and heart of God on earth.

It has never, never carried any implication other than that God is One.

Jesus himself tells us that the Father and the Son are One, and that whosoever has seen the Son has seen the Father.

1+1+1 is indeed simple math, simplistic math even, not outside of the capability of pre-schoolers or even primates.
God on the other hand is profound and anything but simple. Reducing God to such simplicity is in the end a reductio ad absurdem of the Divine.

durangodawood said:

So is it fair to say that the Son and the Holy Spirit are aspects of God? Special ways that he reveals himself for our benefit?
.
They are not separate beings?
.

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No, it is not fair to say that the Son and the Holy Spirit are aspects of God.

A state was made concerning this issue and I'll quote it here:

In this divine and infinite Being there are three subsistences, the Father, the Word or Son, and Holy Spirit, of one substance, power, and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided: the Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son; all infinite, without beginning, therefore but one God, who is not to be divided in nature and being, but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties and personal relations; which doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of all our communion with God, and comfortable dependence on him. ( 1 John 5:7; Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Exodus 3:14; John 14:11; 1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:14,18; John 15:26; Galatians 4:6 )

Supreme said:

Most of the time, this guy makes me laugh. I know it's not intentional, but still. The things this guy comes out with, you might think he was educated in Saudi Arabia or something. Oh, wait...

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And the other one is from Pakistan, deeply rooted Islamism. It goes to show you how much Islam, especially when practiced at the government level, could suppress and oppress Christianity. I hauled from a "secular" one and didn't know any better... Imagine the letdown when one finds out all that he was taught all his life had no basis or foundation in fact...

Trinity is illogical because it is man-made. Allah is one, because he said so. Do you see the irony? I can't fathom why everytime man invents things he doesn't understand in the first place.

A question about Islam and it's God Allah:
Who showed more love? God? or Allah? For it is written in my Bible, "No one hath greater love than this: that a man lay down his life for his friends"
A while ago, a Muslim who i've known to be a good friend of mine for 3 years came up to me, saying to me, "Why do you believe on your God Jesus? Why not worship the One True God Allah?" I replied to him saying, "My God loved me so much that He died for me, just so that I could live. You expect me to give that up for one who hasn't done that?", he then, to my suprise, answered saying, "No. I do not expect you to give that up, if I had that, I wouldn't even give it up."
So my question stands. Allah, being God, the One True God even. Why hasn't He shown the greates act of Love, and forgiveness?

Bushmaster78FS said:

Trinity is illogical because it is man-made. Allah is one, because he said so. Do you see the irony? I can't fathom why everytime man invents things he doesn't understand in the first place.

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One could argue more effectively that a doctrine much simpler to understand, a message that could be grasped by anyone, has the marks of being manufactured by man. God is not simple so I doubt the revelation of Himself to us would be simple. If I wanted to influence a large group of people, a people who were ignorant of the Torah and the Gospels, I would make the message I was preaching as simple as possible and repeat it as often as possible. The shahada for example.