Y
Yusha'
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And what was the reason for you to quote all those ahadeeth, you being a Christian and all?
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Nonsense. You pretty much got caught and now you are trying to spin it around. It is called intellectual honesty, if you are going to argue something of substance, do not use things that you don't believe in your arguments as a foundation.
Islaam says that when the believers return to worshipping Allaah and obeying His commands and purify themselves, than Allaah will grant the believers all kind of bounties.
This thread should not be about personal attacks and criticisms which you don't seem to hesitate from hurling around. Base your accusations on solid grounds not cheap personal attacks. The same accusation can clearly be applied to you in case of your biblical interpretations.Obviously you have never read the Quraan or you are intentionally misrepresenting what it says.
Why do you keep calling people "liars"?This is nothing but a lie.
Yes but do you know what the community does do to you, do you know what they say behind your back? Community (ummah) is the most important piece of a practicing muslims life, as it stands in the middle of islamic worldview. Ummah is the one who justifies or condemns the guilty person. An evil act is understood in relation to this specific ummah. So don't tell us that it is all about the law of the land, because it is not.No Muslim country forces their civilians to attend the mosque.
No kidding. A righteous society where there is NO respect for human rights, women are treated like property, they can't even drive, religion is subjected to individuals by government police, righteous victim of a crime is considered guilty based on gender... We don't need your dark ages on this side of the ocean. Thank you...
What *I* find the most disturbing is that *you* seem to conceive of God as a human being (minus a body, probably): whenever you talk about God, you always talk about "him" as if he were just a person like you or me.
Granted, many Christians habitually do that as well - but at least they tend to agree that God is ultimately unfathomable, and FAR beyond the limitations of a person (even though that doesn't render "him" apersonal, either.)
The hypocrisy was that while knowing that historically Christian orthodoxy never shifted left and right and always guarded the faith against deviations, same actions in the historical context of islam was being ignored. Don't tell me you consider Ahmadis muslims, or alawis for argument's sake. You do not as well as many mainline sunnis, then do not lecture anyone that there were different versions of Christianity. Christianity didn't branch of because of divine revelation, but man's interpretation. Oh wait, was not that the case with Hazrat Ali, being the only family tie to Muhammad, an interpretative error?You claimed that historically there was only one version of Christianity, and I promptly refuted you on this. I see no evidence of hypocrisy.
Don't shift the topic and misquote me. I said "The Bible directs us to invoke those who are in heaven".Are Angels living or dead? the psalm is merely exhorting everyone, angels including, to praise God alone (not to say "Hail Mary").
It is same as you venerate your prophet in such manners like;Christian "veneration" of icons is identical to pagan, Hindu, Buddhist, Zoroastrian "veneration" of their icons as well. I hope you would agree that Hinduism, buddhism, zoroastrianism, sikhism, etc., all of these are pagan religions. What you need to explain is how is your "veneration" of Virgin Mary any different from a Hindu "veneration" of Saraswati or an ancient Greek's "veneration" of Aphrodite?
Read above. I am done explaining to those who do not listen. Interesting to note, whirling crowds around Kabaa predates Islam, I guess pagan veneration is not only subject to Christian faith.You have yet to explain how exactly you "venerate" your icons and how it cannot be considered as worship, and more importantly, how your "veneration" of these icons is unlike the pagan "veneration" of their idols.
Don't shift the topic, you constantly drag the argument to irrelevant rhetoric. The topic was the accessory and sacred objects used in worship of God. This bronze snake was one, it was an object that healed people. Therefore your point that accessory was not allowed in worship of God was refuted.Is the bronze snake an icon, was it ever venerated? Did people bow down or prostrate before it like how eastern orthodox and roman catholics do to their icons?
You know worship is not prostrating on the floor 5 times a day at certain times of the day. That is the narrow Islamic understanding of it. People worshipped God through the miracle of the bronze snake, that object was a tool facilitating it. It doesn't matter how hard you try to relate that a direct connection to RCC or EO is not there, you fail to see that concept is...By accessory I take it again you mean an "accessory for worship", whereas the bronze snake had nothing to do with worship.
Yea, faulty logic again, in that same line of reasoning, those poisonous snakes happened to be bronze too? Why was it have to erected? It was honored and venerated which actually led them to elevate it to the status of a god, therefore it was destroyed.The reason it was a figure of a snake was because the people of Moses were being bitten by poisonous snakes.
That conclusion doesn't even make sense not was it warranted, however it serves as a good example how you manage to shoot yourself in the foor over and over again, to conclude from veneration of Christian icons that Christians worship them is completely absurd.To conclude from this that the people of Moses venerated snakes is completely absurd to say the least.
Like anyone really cares about how you define worship... Although if you didn't notice what you quoted here is not the definition of worship but what is being told in the commandment. Friendly advice, if you asked for a definition, listen to it, if you can't, then have a nice day, don't bother anyone else.What a narrow definition of worship.
Still the same irrelevant rhetoric. Argumentum ad nauseam. We don't worship Krishna.This is nothing new. You really need to study other religions as well. They are all claiming the same thing. We are not worshipping the image of Ram, we are venerating it so we can get closer to Brahman (The Absolute Reality) through it. In essence, the image of Ram or Krishna is just "an accessory of worship" for the Hindus.
That is false exegesis, nothing suggests that calf was a representing accessory, it was a replacement. But veneration doesn't end there, we do find them in the Scripturesplenty of them! Consider how prevalent they were in the Tabernacle and then later in the Temple. There were images of cherubim:Interestingly, in the episode of the golden calf, it is said that after Aaron had fashioned the golden calf, he announced in front of its altar that tomorrow there is going to be a festival to the LORD. (Exodus 32:5) By LORD he is referring to the tetragrammaton, which means he is talking about the One God. So it becomes apparent that even the devious Israelites who worshipped the golden calf didn't abandon the One True God, rather, they made an icon which is an "accessory" to the One True God.
Noone knows why Muhammad kissed the asteroid. So blindly they repeat after him, like it is of importance to imitate, what is it that being achieved by kissing the black stone which reeks idolatry from the get go? As one can see, arguments are endless both ways. But Christian veneration of Icons is not about what God needs or not. It is about an expression of worship, reverence, veneration.Bottom line: idolatry is idolatry...there's no way to justify it. God is Almighty, He needs no "accessories" in worship.
Where is this physical literal throne that Allah sits on like a man?Yes.
Oh exactly, after all it is the VERY SAME thing you commit. And that marks the double standards you can not let go. But there is a difference. That difference is the complete exegesis of the context in the light of the Gospels. Searching the meaning, words are not cherry picked to define things out of them, but looked upon in general understanding with proper background of biblical characters. The biblical text offers more clues to the context if research properly, such as the young man being SAD after a commandment given to him by Christ. What do you know about sincere motivation?I see, and you are simply going to go with one of those thousands of logical reasons which doesn't shatter your preconceived ideas. Thus you are interpreting the words of your messiah you claim to follow based on your desires and not based on a sincere motivation to follow him no matter what.
Oh we are tracking, not bad. Now both rebuking and then loving. What a dilemma, which one is it?Obviously.
Dude if you are not going to listen to what I am saying I am going to have to put you on ignore. I don't have time. Seriously, the story is not about the young man, it is not narrated or told by the young man, young man in this story is not the core or subject of the story, I ALREADY SAID "Is Jesus here rebuking the man for calling Him good and thereby denying His deity? No. Rather, He is using a penetrating question to push the man to think through the implications of his own words, to understand the concept of Jesus goodness and, most especially, the mans lack of goodness. The young ruler went away sad (Mark 10:22) because he realized that although he had devoted himself to keeping the commandments, he had failed to keep the first and greatest of the commandmentslove the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength (Matthew 22:37-38). The mans riches were of more worth to him than God, and thus he was not good in the eyes of God. Jesus fundamental lesson here is that goodness flows not from a mans deeds, but rather from God Himself. Jesus invites the man to follow Him, the only means of doing good by Gods ultimate standard. Jesus describes to the young ruler what it means to follow Himto be willing to give up everything, thus putting God first. When one considers that Jesus is drawing a distinction between mans standard of goodness and Gods standard, it becomes clear that following Jesus is good. The command to follow Christ is the definitive proclamation of Christs goodness. Thus, by the very standard Jesus is exhorting the young ruler to adopt, Jesus is good. And it necessarily follows that if Jesus is indeed good by this standard, Jesus is implicitly declaring His deity.The irony is you claim to have a better understanding of what Jesus actually meant than this fellow who was actually there in his presence. You claim he misunderstood the words of Jesus to be a rebuke. If Jesus really was God I doubt he would want to confuse people with his words, isn't it true God is not the author of confusion.
Every king has a throne, and Allaah is Maalik ul Amlak (King of Kings) and His Throne extends above the heavens and the earth, and Allaah ascended over His throne in a manner that befits His Majesty.
Great you can't answer the questions about the nonsensical islamic superstition of dogs, therefore you reach out to Eucharist. First please answer the question, if you can't tell me you can't. Second, communion is not food, it is done in remembrance of Christ as noted in Scriptures. Communion is not consumed like coke or rice, nor its purpose is to provide physical satisfaction ... What kind of nonsense is that from someone who claims to know enough to refute Christian faith?Why do you have to take communion (bread and wine) to experience God? Why does the outward intake of these food have any relevance, since according to you God judges the heart. Of course He judges the heart, does that mean if I eat rice instead of bread and drink Coca-cola instead of wine I can still experience God in the communion, because God knows whats in my heart?
Hardly any reason for a MIGHTY supernatural being to be stopped in his tracks. Uncleanliness doesn't come from contact, or intake. It comes from within. So a holy being can not become unholy by simply being in the presence of unclean unholy.Angels are holy beings, they do not desire to be in places of uncleanliness.
Too bad you don't get it. It was not suggested that qirat, which is kirat in my language was a physical currency, the point was the conditional reward itself, and the ridiculous statement that measurement of these rewards are reduced by owning a dog, which has nothing to do with spirituality.LOL, qirat is not a physical currency, the hadith itself says "qiraat of reward" its a measurement of reward (known as ajr). If you were really a Muslim previously you would definitely know these things.
You own premise doesn't follow. First, you talk about God liking a person or not by personal hygiene. You assert that this is the way to earn God's liking, which really is not. Then you turn it around and say how that would affect others who are worshipping... Who cares, we are not talking about communal worship, and the importance is the worship not the yoke of the sanitary requirement. Do you think we have time in combat when we go to services? Most of the time we don't, God doesn't need our bodily cleanliness, He cares for the heart of worship.Sure, but does that mean you should not wash and make sure your body is clean? You think God likes it if someone does not clean himself, comes to a place of worship without washing himself and making sure he is clean, smells good, etc? What effect you think this person will have on others who are engaged in worshipping God.
Islam is not the spirit of truth if that is what is implied here. Purification of heart doesn't come from washing your hands or performing gusl after a "wet dream" it comes from repentance.The difference between Islaam and Christianity is that Islaam is not just a religion, its a way of life, like Jesus said in the gospel of John, the spirit of truth will give total guidance, he won't just be teaching rosy parables. Jesus emphasized on rosy parables, because his audience was already following the outer laws strictly, but their problem was they knew nothing about purification of the heart and intentions. Islaam came through Muhammad whose audience not only lacked spiritual purity within, but also outward righteousness.
Irrelevant, why ask me questions that doesn't apply to me, and why do you try to change the subject?So again, what is the purpose of such laws being found in the Torah? Is the Torah not a book of spirituality?
Do you know what local tradition is? Hearsay in the mouth of local ummah, do you believe that those can be traced throughout generations?Please clarify what tradition or traditions you are referring to.
Your argument doesn't apply. Are those fake hadith? Did I claim there were tampered with? No. On the contrary, you suggest that New Testament is corrupt, Paul is a crook, and then you turn around and use his words to make your point. That is intellectual dishonesty.And what was the reason for you to quote all those ahadeeth, you being a Christian and all?
We don't have a torah. If you are interested in finding out about what Jews think in the matter, refer to their interpretation. When are you going to grasp that we are passed that point?The irony is that everything you accuse Islaam of promoting is found written in your torah.
For example, "killing apostates", you find in the Torah God commands Moses and the Levites to kill the apostates who worshipped the golden calf.
From the looks of it, since Israel doesn't seem to be representing a dark ages in any manner considering lifestyle nowadays, it is safe to say that the modern application has been adopted."women treated like property" you find in the Torah man has the right to divorce his wife (not the other way around) and many other restrictions on women. Funny how you would consider the ideal society of the Torah to be "dark ages".
What a disconnected premise. So you base the authenticity of your faith to Torah now?It shows that Islaam is true to the God of Abraham and Moses, whereas christianity is embarrassed about the God of Abraham and Moses and wants to make a new god that doesn't care if you kneel before statues of a dead woman.
That is not what she is arguing, she is saying that you are easily objectifying and personifying God as you feel like it.That's an issue of language. In the Arabic and english languages, Him is used to refer to both that which is masculine as well as that which gender does not apply. However, the pronoun "Her" is exclusively feminine. That why I refer to Allaah as "He" or "Him" or "His", it doesn't mean I believe Allaah is male, He is neither male or female. Gender does not apply to Him.
Is this supposed to be the description of Jesus?Islaam is completely against Christianity's anthropomorphic understanding of God as a man with a flesh and blood body, wearing white robes, having long hair, a beard, wielding a double edged sword that will come out of his mouth, etc.
But you muslims sit Allah in a physical throne. Hashaa!The doctrine of incarnation is actually the worst form of anthropomorphizing the Divine. We Muslims thus reject such a doctrine.
O Yusha....I never said Mary is part of the trinity.
You claim Christians don't worship Mary, so what exactly are these people doing?
So if those Catholics aren't worshipping Mary, I guess these Hindus aren't really worshipping their idols either.
Never heard of these events, maybe you can explain them to me.
Mary is NOT part of the Trinity.
Nor do we worship her in any form.
She is venerated and honored as Jesus Himself honored His Mother according to the Ten Commandments of the Law.
She became the New Eve, so says the writers of the beginning of the Church.
That's great you understand that.
See even an athiest knows this.
What do you make of my prayers being answered?
How about the prayers that helped with conversions, or miracles of physical ailments that could have been fatal?
How about the Lourdes Grotto? Or Fatima?
70,000 witnesses who saw and felt the sun drop to the earth within seconds it was back in place...
How about the rain that soaked them, and after this event everyone was dry?
How about 70,000 witnesses??
Have you heard about these events? I am curious.
The hypocrisy was that while knowing that historically Christian orthodoxy never shifted left and right and always guarded the faith against deviations
then do not lecture anyone that there were different versions of Christianity. Christianity didn't branch of because of divine revelation, but man's interpretation.
When speaking or writing, Muhammad's name is preceded by the title "Prophet" and is followed by the phrase, Peace be upon him, or Peace be upon him and his descendants by Shias; in English often abbreviated as "(pbuh)" and "pbuh&hd", or just simply as "p".
That's a lie, see the pictures I posted of Christians directing their prayers to the icon (not merely praying in their presence). The cherubim and decoration of the Israelite temple and ark were exactly that (decoration), the Israelites never made them the focus of their worship.These are forms of venerating your prophet. You are unfortunately hang up on the physical form of this veneration in Christianity, since you prostrate during your ritual prayers daring the day, any bowing motion by a Christian would be interpreted as "worship" Once again, Christian veneration of icons is not worship of icons or icons substituting as God. The difference between other religions is Christ Himself. Christians pray in the presence of Icons (just as Israelites prayed in the presence of Icons in the Temple), but we do not pray to the image.
The Scriptures do command the Israelites to bow before the Ark, which had two prominent images of cherubim on it. In Psalms 99:5, it commands: “bow before the footstool of His feet….” We should note first of all that the word for “bow” here, is the same word used in Exodus 20:5, when we are told to not bow to idols.And what is the “footstool of His feet”?
Read above. I am done explaining to those who do not listen. Interesting to note, whirling crowds around Kabaa predates Islam
Don't shift the topic, you constantly drag the argument to irrelevant rhetoric. The topic was the accessory and sacred objects used in worship of God. This bronze snake was one, it was an object that healed people. Therefore your point that accessory was not allowed in worship of God was refuted.
People worshipped God through the miracle of the bronze snake, that object was a tool facilitating it.
It was honored and venerated which actually led them to elevate it to the status of a god, therefore it was destroyed.
to conclude from veneration of Christian icons that Christians worship them is completely absurd.
Like anyone really cares about how you define worship
We don't worship Krishna.
That is false exegesis, nothing suggests that calf was a representing accessory, it was a replacement.
But veneration doesn't end there, we do find them in the Scriptures—plenty of them! Consider how prevalent they were in the Tabernacle and then later in the Temple. There were images of cherubim:
In short, there were Icons everywhere you turned.
- On the Ark—Ex. 25:18
- On the Curtains of the Tabernacle—Ex. 26:1
- On the Veil of the Holy of Holies—Ex. 26:31
- Two huge Cherubim in the Sanctuary—1st Kings 6:23
- On the Walls—1st Kings 6:29
- On the Doors—1st Kings 6:32
- And on the furnishings—1st Kings 7:29,36
Noone knows why Muhammad kissed the asteroid. So blindly they repeat after him, like it is of importance to imitate, what is it that being achieved by kissing the black stone which reeks idolatry from the get go?
But Christian veneration of Icons is not about what God needs or not. It is about an expression of worship, reverence, veneration.
Where is this physical literal throne that Allah sits on like a man?
The biblical text offers more clues to the context if research properly, such as the young man being SAD after a commandment given to him by Christ. What do you know about sincere motivation?
Oh we are tracking, not bad. Now both rebuking and then loving. What a dilemma, which one is it?
Allah sits on His physical Throne, like a man does.
Our Allaah is living, human beings also live, but Allaah is alive in a manner that befits His Majesty, He sees and hears everything, humans have the ability to hear and see, but not like Allaah, because all of Allaah's qualities and attributes are unique, and they have no similitude.
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