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Great. But understand that is entirely insufficient evidence for me to believe god exists. So I guess we have come to an impasse on the existence of god.Because I do....
No, it would only be special pleading if you could show that Christianity didn't hold this to be a tenet in their worldview. This is an established part of Christianity.
Does it? Surprising considering this scientist has I believe some 125 publications to his name. He was considered a leading scientist in DNA research and wrote several books on the subject, I know of four. I find it interesting that your whole premise was that simple chemistry to form a self-replicating molecule is pure chemistry and now you claim an expert in the field should be "in a much more relevant field to address the issue. It is equally interesting that you have claimed you listen to experts.
No, I am saying that you are saying that everything has a naturalistic explanation because we know the natural world exists. Which begs the question.
That is actually untrue. There are scientists in the field that are do believe that new discoveries support intelligence behind those discoveries. Some scientists that were atheists became believers due to those new discoveries. DNA is a discovery that implies Intelligence due to the information within it. Even Crick, commented, "Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved. Scientists acknowledge the "appearance" of design but deny due to their own personal biases against God to allow for the conclusion it is designed. The more we discover, the more support towards design is evident. You can deny it is design if that is your choice, however, the appearance of design is well documented through Science and scientists (the atheistic biases disallow for actual design).
It is not an assumption that Jesus was a Jew, it is not assumption that the Disciples were Jews. Paul was a Jew, His mother was Jewish.
Wiki:
The books of the New Testament were all or nearly all written by Jewish Christians—that is, Jewish disciples of Christ, who lived in the Roman Empire, and under Roman occupation. Luke, who wrote the Gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts, is frequently thought of as an exception; scholars are divided as to whether Luke was a Gentile or a Hellenistic Jew. A few scholars identify the author of the Gospel of Mark as probably a Gentile, and similarly for the Gospel of Matthew, though most assert Jewish...
First of all, thank you for taking the time to repost our conversation. That takes a lot of time and you have a family and a job so I appreciate it.
Here is a time frame that most Biblical scholars agree upon in which the writers of the NT wrote:
Chronology of New Testament Books and Events
Date* Historical Event
4 BC Birth of Jesus
4 BC Death of Herod the Great
14 AD Death of Augustus Caesar
14 AD Tiberius Becomes Emperor of Rome
26 AD Jesus Begins his Public Ministry
29 AD Jesus is Crucified on Passover
29 AD Jesus Rises from the Dead and Appears to Many
29 AD The Holy Spirit Comes and the Church is Born
30 AD Christianity Spreads in Jerusalem
34 AD Stephen is Stoned and Martyrdom Begins
35 AD Paul Accepts Jesus on the Road to Damascus
37 AD Caligula Becomes Emperor of Rome
40 AD Cornelius and Gentiles Accept Jesus
41 AD Claudius Becomes Emperor of Rome
42 AD Antioch Becomes the New Center for the Christians
43 AD Theudas claims to be Messiah and is executed
46 AD The Book of James is Written
46 AD Paul Begins his First Missionary Journey
51 AD Paul Begins his Second Missionary Journey
52 AD The Book of 1 Thessalonians is Written from Corinth
53 AD The Book of 2 Thessalonians is Written from Corinth
54 AD Paul Begins his Third Missionary Journey
54 AD Nero Becomes Emperor of Rome
56 AD The Book of Galatians is Written from Corinth
57 AD The Book of 1 Corinthians is Written from Macedonia
57 AD The Book of 2 Corinthians is Written from Macedonia
58 AD The Book of Romans is Written from Corinth
58 AD The Book of 1 Peter is Written from Babylon/Rome (?)
59 AD Paul is Imprisoned at Caesarea
59 AD The Book of Philippians is Written from Caesarea
60 AD The Book of Matthew is Written from Antioch (?)
60 AD Paul Appears Before Agrippa
61 AD Paul is Imprisoned at Rome
61 AD The Book of Titus is Written from Rome
61 AD The Book of Philemon is Written from Rome
61 AD The Book of Mark is Written from Rome (?)
62 AD The Book of Ephesians is Written from Rome
62 AD The Book of Colossians is Written from Rome
62 AD Paul is Released
62 AD The Book of 1 Timothy is Written from Macedonia
63 AD The Book of Hebrews is Written from Judea (?)
64 AD Paul is Imprisoned Again
64 AD The Great Fire of Rome (Christians are Blamed)
65 AD The Book of 2 Peter is Written from Rome
65 AD The Book of 2 Timothy is Written from Rome
66 AD The Jews of Judea Revolt against Rome
67 AD The Book of Acts is Written from Rome
68 AD Paul is Martyred at Rome
69 AD Jerusalem is Besieged by the Romans
69 AD Vespasian Becomes Emperor of Rome
70 AD Jerusalem and the Temple are Destroyed and the Jews are Deported
73 AD The Jews Commit Mass Suicide at Masada
79 AD Titus Becomes Emperor of Rome
80 AD The Book of John is Written from Ephesus (?)
80 AD The Book of 1 John is Written from Judea (?)
80 AD The Book of 2 John is Written from Ephesus (?)
80 AD The Book of 3 John is Written from Ephesus (?)
89 AD The Book of Revelation is Written from Patmos
*All Dates are approximate, there has been much debate and speculation as to exact dates.
Its your choice to believe what you believe.
You asked me for a source, I gave you one. You didn't ask for the material from the source.
I direct you again to the culture.
Do you even know what "special pleading" means?
Special pleading means that you make up a rule in order to explain why you need God but then say that the rule doesn't apply to God for... reasons.
When you say that the universe needed to be created but God didn't need to be created, then this is special pleading.
It isn't special pleading. That is the same as saying humans and fish share an ancestor, and someone says you are special pleading because we know fish are not human. Do you understand what the comparison shows?Do you even know what "special pleading" means?
You seem to be under the illusion that atheists rule the rules. Special pleading is an argument fallacy...any argument not specifically meant for atheists to use against any argument for Christianity. God not being a created being is a central tenet of Christianity.Special pleading means that you make up a rule in order to explain why you need God but then say that the rule doesn't apply to God for... reasons.
See above.When you say that the universe needed to be created but God didn't need to be created, then this is special pleading.
I'm sorry? What do you mean here?Of course, and this is why every scientist in the field agrees with him and agrees that it could only be because God did it.
In classical rhetoric and logic, begging the question is an informal fallacy that occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it. It is a type of circular reasoning: an argument that requires that the desired conclusion be true. This often occurs in an indirect way such that the fallacy's presence is hidden, or at least not easily apparent.What do you think "Begging the question" actually means?
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1112.4647.pdfCare to show me any peer reviewed papers these scientists have written about this topic then?
So? That is contemporary. If I witnessed an event and wrote about it 25 years later are you saying that isn't considered contemporary? So proveIt is still an assumption that the gospels were written decades before the earliest copies we have.
See above.And the first of the sources, the First book of James, was not written until 17 years after Jesus was crucified. Hardly a contemporary source. And for someone who was allegedly the brother of Jesus, the big guy himself barely gets a mention, and even then, it's never as someone the author knew personally. Also, the date is not known; some scholars (such as David Neinhaus, Professor of New Testament studies at Seattle Pacific University) put the date it was written during the mid second century. You can read a preview of his book HERE.
The next book that was written according to your timeline was Thessalonians. These two books were written in 52AD, which puts them at about a quarter century AFTER Jesus' crucifiction. It's accepted that this was actually written by Paul, and I won't argue that here. But Paul never knew an Earthly Jesus. He came to Christianity after the fact, so even if did do something more than repeat the beliefs of Christians, he isn't an eyewitness.
The next book is Galatians. Again, this has been confirmed as having been written by Paul, and while there is some debate as to when it was written, I won't argue that either. But the book (letter, really) is really just about the importance of being circumcised and other religious laws to be followed. However, it is odd that he says Jesus was crucified on a tree, which contradicts the usual version of the story. In any case, once again, Paul never knew an earthly Jesus and he is writing almost 30 years AFTER the Jesus' life.
I could continue, but I won't, as none of the sources mentioned in that timeline are the contemporary accounts as I requested.
No, just stating my opinion.This sounds very evasive.
You can say anything you wish, doesn't make it true however.I can say, "We must be adventurous and brave, like Hillary climbing Everest, Armstrong flying to the moon, or Kirk when he was captain of the Enterprise."
The fact that I mention two real people doesn't mean I am not allowed to talk about Captain Kirk. And it does not make Kirk real.
Hmmm. Probably did seem that way.So despite knowing exactly what I was asking (I mean, any rational person would understand that I was asking for the material, not just the author), you decided to be silly about it? It's like you actively WANT me to dislike you.
No, I always answer honestly and give you reasons for my answers. You make the determination by not understanding the material that it is excuses. The culture in which an ancient manuscript is written is very important to the overall understanding of the material and how that material comes about.Always excuses to justify why it means what you want it to mean.
Why would god want us to believe without sufficient evidence? Everything you said was evidence has problems and is insufficient for belief. I cannot CHOOSE to believe he exists? How is it forcing us to believe he exists if he gives us sufficient evidence for his existence. I have sufficient evidence to believe the earth is spherical shaped, is that forcing me to believe it is, and why is that a bad thing? Giving evidence that he exists would at least give us a chance to have an informed decision to follow him. All teh evidence you gave above can be evidence for other gods as well so if we CHOOSE to believe a god it is a crap shoot at best to get the right one.He can. Will He? I don't know. Yet, putting myself in God's place: I create the universe and all life within it. I put out there evidence that I designed it but leave it where someone isn't forced to believe but has evidence to believe. I create life with DNA which contains information which only is a product of intelligent minds with a code, language and blue prints which illuminate that intelligence. Yet, He wants you to believe what you CHOOSE to believe. He creates the perfect planet for life to exist. He makes laws that the universe obeys and only intelligence is know to produce laws . Yet, He wants you to believe what you CHOOSE to believe. He writes a moral code within each human being that is universal and yet, He wants you to believe what you CHOOSE to believe. He gave you experiences that were to lead you to Him, yet, He wanted you to CHOOSE to believe. So putting myself in God's place, wanting you to make the choice for me rather than against me from your own free will, would I use something to force you to believe? So while He could give you undisputable proof of His existence, He wants everyone to make that choice on their own.
Maybe because he loves me and is not petty? If god of the bible exists and is moral then he can convince me that he is. A god that shows me he exists and is moral does not force me to follow or love him. It just gives me a choice.You believe He is an immoral monster, why would the God of all of Creation bow down to the created when you feel the way you do?
It is true I don't want to follow a god that thinks forced slavery or killing homosexuals is moral. My worldview is not my choice it is a result of what I am convinced and not convinced of by evidence just like you. Could you choose to not believe god exists?I don't think so. You are fine not having evidence as long as that void is within your own worldview. Your chosen worldview I might add. So evidence isn't as important as you are claiming, you don't want to bow down to a God that you feel is less moral than you are. You don't want to bow down to a God who won't give in to your demands.
I don't get that just becasue I don't know where or why everything exists that somehow disqualifies me from evaluating a god claim. If you think that I cannot evaluate evidence of a god claim then how will I ever come to the conclusion that he exists? Then I am stuck.So you don't need evidence for reality to evaluate the evidence of the existence of God. The universe exists, why should it? How does it, how did it come into existence?
It doesn't. You need to provide evidence that there is a goal. Evolution has no goal.Why does life at its very beginning have a language that produces a goal?
You have it backwards, the life that exists is a result of where the earth sits in the solar system. Evolution is pretty clear about this.Why does the earth sit exactly where it sets in the galaxy that is necessary for life to exist as we know it?
This is ridiculous. You want me to believe a god exists but then you are telling me I cannot know if a god exists becasue I don't know everything there is to know?These are reality. You can deny that it doesn't matter if your worldview can't explain it, but why then do you claim it is necessary, not only necessary but insufficient for you to believe God exists? That is bordering on hypocrisy.
I guess the evidence is in the eye of the beholder. As far as who God is, that is your responsibility as well.Why would god want us to believe without sufficient evidence? Everything you said was evidence has problems and is insufficient for belief. I cannot CHOOSE to believe he exists? How is it forcing us to believe he exists if he gives us sufficient evidence for his existence. I have sufficient evidence to believe the earth is spherical shaped, is that forcing me to believe it is, and why is that a bad thing? Giving evidence that he exists would at least give us a chance to have an informed decision to follow him. All teh evidence you gave above can be evidence for other gods as well so if we CHOOSE to believe a god it is a crap shoot at best to get the right one.
He is giving you a choice.Maybe because he loves me and is not petty? If god of the bible exists and is moral then he can convince me that he is. A god that shows me he exists and is moral does not force me to follow or love him. It just gives me a choice.
It doesn't matter if he thinks lying is equally sinful? I find your worldview lacks evidence but that is me.It is true I don't want to follow a god that thinks forced slavery or killing homosexuals is moral. My worldview is not my choice it is a result of what I am convinced and not convinced of by evidence just like you. Could you choose to not believe god exists?
I guess you are stuck as long as you expect God to jump through your hoops.I don't get that just becasue I don't know where or why everything exists that somehow disqualifies me from evaluating a god claim. If you think that I cannot evaluate evidence of a god claim then how will I ever come to the conclusion that he exists? Then I am stuck.
How do you know that?It doesn't. You need to provide evidence that there is a goal. Evolution has no goal.
That is what I said. The earth is in the perfect place to allow life, conditions on the earth are the perfect conditions to allow life, the cosmos are the age they need to be to allow life and on it goes.You have it backwards, the life that exists is a result of where the earth sits in the solar system. Evolution is pretty clear about this.
No, my point was that you claim you are all about evidence, yet the evidence for your worldview is lacking.This is ridiculous. You want me to believe a god exists but then you are telling me I cannot know if a god exists becasue I don't know everything there is to know?
Is it my responsibility to investigate the thousands of gods that have been claimed? Why just the christian god?I guess the evidence is in the eye of the beholder. As far as who God is, that is your responsibility as well.
No, he would be giving me a choice to follow him if he would provide evidence for his existence. Until then there is no choice but not to believe until provided sufficient evidence.He is giving you a choice.
It is unjust to give the same punishment for all crimes. What evidence should I provide? What is my worldview?It doesn't matter if he thinks lying is equally sinful? I find your worldview lacks evidence but that is me.
I don't think it is out of line to want evidence for gods existence before belief, that is not asking for him to jump through hoops, it is just asking for common decency.I guess you are stuck as long as you expect God to jump through your hoops.
No, that is not what I said. We disagree here. I am claiming that life exists becasue of where the world is located. If it was located in a different location maybe different life would exist. You are claiming that the earth was put here specifically for life to exist as humans. Life adapted to the conditions not that the condition was created for life.That is what I said. The earth is in the perfect place to allow life, conditions on the earth are the perfect conditions to allow life, the cosmos are the age they need to be to allow life and on it goes.
What evidence do I need? I do not believe a god exists which is not a claim and requires no evidence. I am a humanist, do you require evidence for that? My morality is based on well being, do you want evidence for that? What evidence are you looking for?No, my point was that you claim you are all about evidence, yet the evidence for your worldview is lacking.
It's NOT special pleading. All one needs to do to realize this is to apply a little Analytic Philosophy to the terms "universe" and "God."Of course, I realize that someone out there will balk at this, especially if they don't know the difference between a baseball and an orange. "But, but, but, Philo.....they're both round and they both can be held in one hand, so they both have the same essential nature .... !"
It isn't special pleading. That is the same as saying humans and fish share an ancestor, and someone says you are special pleading because we know fish are not human. Do you understand what the comparison shows?
You seem to be under the illusion that atheists rule the rules. Special pleading is an argument fallacy...any argument not specifically meant for atheists to use against any argument for Christianity. God not being a created being is a central tenet of Christianity.
I'm sorry? What do you mean here?
In classical rhetoric and logic, begging the question is an informal fallacy that occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it. It is a type of circular reasoning: an argument that requires that the desired conclusion be true. This often occurs in an indirect way such that the fallacy's presence is hidden, or at least not easily apparent.
So? That is contemporary. If I witnessed an event and wrote about it 25 years later are you saying that isn't considered contemporary? So prove
See above.
You can say anything you wish, doesn't make it true however.
Hmmm. Probably did seem that way.
No, I always answer honestly and give you reasons for my answers. You make the determination by not understanding the material that it is excuses. The culture in which an ancient manuscript is written is very important to the overall understanding of the material and how that material comes about.
Yes. It shows that you don't understand what special pleading is.
Special pleading is when someone says, "This rule always applies - except in this case where it doesn't apply, but I can give no good reason for why it doesn't apply in that one case."
I've never said any such thing. Descriptions of the various types of logical fallacies are freely available for anyone to study. It's not my fault if you don't get it.
I'm being sarcastic.
The fact that you can cut and paste from Wikipedia does not demonstrate that you actually understand what begging the question is.
Care to explain it in your own words and provide an example?
I asked for a peer reviewed paper, you give me a guy writing a bunch of book reviews. And he works in astronomy and cosmology, not biology. He has only two published papers, neither of them on biology, nor on fine tuning in the universe. Fore the record, the papers are:
- Joseph, T., Filipovic, M., Crawford, E., Bojicic, I., Alexander, E., Wong, G., Andernach, H., Leverenz, H., Norris, R., Alsaberi, R., Anderson, C., Barnes, L., Bozzetto, L., Bufano, F., Bunton, J., Cavallaro, F., Collier, J., Denes, H., Fukui, Y. and Grieve, K. (2019), 'The ASKAP-EMU Early Science Project : radio continuum survey of the Small Magellanic Cloud', Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society, vol 490, no 1 , pp 1202 - 1219.
- Alsaberi, R., Barnes, L., Filipovic, M., Maxted, N., Sano, H., Rowell, G., Bozzetto, L., Gurovich, S., Urosevic, D., Onic, D., For, B., Manojlovic, P., Wong, G., Galvin, T., Kavanagh, P., Ralph, N., Crawford, E., Sasaki, M., Haberl, F. and Fukui, Y. (2019), 'Radio emission from interstellar shocks : young type Ia supernova remnants and the case of N 103B in the Large Magellanic Cloud', Astrophysics and Space Science, vol 364, no 11.
So prove what? You kinda fizzled out there.
And no, it's not contemporary. Contemporary literally means "at the same time." A contemporary source for the Korean war, for example, would have been created during the war itself. If it was created a quarter of a century later, it is not contemporary. THe Korean war ended in 1953. If someone wrote a book about it in 1978, would you consider that a contemporary source?
Same.
So you are saying it is not true that I can reference Captain Kirk in the same sentence as Sir Edmund Hillary.
Your argument here is flimsier than a wet Kleenex.
I wonder why?
And yet you don't seem to care about the culture when it comes to the John Frum example. Perhaps it's because you aren't interested since you've already concluded that the logic you are using to support your case doesn't apply in the John Frum case?
Good luck with that!Then please, demonstrate how the application of "analytic philosophy" shows that it's not special pleading.
Then please, demonstrate how the application of "analytic philosophy" shows that it's not special pleading.
Good luck with that!
So again, I need to know analytic philosophy and philosophical hermeneutics to know god exists?Why would you care? Do you study Analytic Philosophy or Philosophical Hermeneutics? I'm going to assume you don't, which might be part of your overall problem.
https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Analytic_philosophy
Don't play dumb. You're previous response was given to me in connection to what Kylie said. So, don't start talking as if there's some 'other' context in which we're now talking.So again, I need to know analytic philosophy and philosophical hermeneutics to know god exists?
.....Good gravy, man, I just explained (to Kylie) WHY WHAT YOU'RE SAYING ISN'T THE CASE !!!I will let Kylie answer your post but you did nothing to support that it is not special pleading. You seem to have just said because we have defined god as having no cause that it is not special pleading. You need to demonstrate God is uncaused, then you can say it is not special pleading.
Kylie, perhaps you might not get it, you seem to think that only Kylie understand anything.Yes. It shows that you don't understand what special pleading is.
Special pleading is when someone says, "This rule always applies - except in this case where it doesn't apply, but I can give no good reason for why it doesn't apply in that one case."
Kylie, I never claimed you said it. Again, someone else's fault for 'not getting it'.I've never said any such thing. Descriptions of the various types of logical fallacies are freely available for anyone to study. It's not my fault if you don't get it.
Silly me.I'm being sarcastic.
Once again, only you can understand. Is it hard being the only intelligent being on planet Earth?The fact that you can cut and paste from Wikipedia does not demonstrate that you actually understand what begging the question is.
Care to explain it in your own words and provide an example?
I asked for a peer reviewed paper, you give me a guy writing a bunch of book reviews. And he works in astronomy and cosmology, not biology. He has only two published papers, neither of them on biology, nor on fine tuning in the universe. Fore the record, the papers are:
- Joseph, T., Filipovic, M., Crawford, E., Bojicic, I., Alexander, E., Wong, G., Andernach, H., Leverenz, H., Norris, R., Alsaberi, R., Anderson, C., Barnes, L., Bozzetto, L., Bufano, F., Bunton, J., Cavallaro, F., Collier, J., Denes, H., Fukui, Y. and Grieve, K. (2019), 'The ASKAP-EMU Early Science Project : radio continuum survey of the Small Magellanic Cloud', Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society, vol 490, no 1 , pp 1202 - 1219.
- Alsaberi, R., Barnes, L., Filipovic, M., Maxted, N., Sano, H., Rowell, G., Bozzetto, L., Gurovich, S., Urosevic, D., Onic, D., For, B., Manojlovic, P., Wong, G., Galvin, T., Kavanagh, P., Ralph, N., Crawford, E., Sasaki, M., Haberl, F. and Fukui, Y. (2019), 'Radio emission from interstellar shocks : young type Ia supernova remnants and the case of N 103B in the Large Magellanic Cloud', Astrophysics and Space Science, vol 364, no 11.
My computer is wacked. It has been having problems. I try to post my responses and it won't post reply, I have to hit refresh. Its been quite a problem.So prove what? You kinda fizzled out there.
That was my point Kylie. I lived the event "at the time" but didn't write about it until much later...same as the authors of the NT. In fact, there is evidence like I said, that they wrote it down earlier than when it was compiled.And no, it's not contemporary. Contemporary literally means "at the same time." A contemporary source for the Korean war, for example, would have been created during the war itself. If it was created a quarter of a century later, it is not contemporary. THe Korean war ended in 1953. If someone wrote a book about it in 1978, would you consider that a contemporary source?
Your assumption is not in evidence.So you are saying it is not true that I can reference Captain Kirk in the same sentence as Sir Edmund Hillary.
Your argument here is flimsier than a wet Kleenex.
Yes! I do. The culture is most important in both cases.And yet you don't seem to care about the culture when it comes to the John Frum example. Perhaps it's because you aren't interested since you've already concluded that the logic you are using to support your case doesn't apply in the John Frum case?
The God space looking to be filled.I had to look up John Frum ..it's quite a fascinating story, I couldn't help but think how quirky we are as humans and how that would have made a great Herzog documentary.
This is the issue with you. I don't really care about philosophical arguments that do not match reality......Good gravy, man, I just explained (to Kylie) WHY WHAT YOU'RE SAYING ISN'T THE CASE !!!
THERE SHOULD BE NO REQUIREMENT TO 'DEMONSTRATE' THAT GOD IS UNCAUSED. IT'S TRUE BY DEFINITION, analytically speaking.
But you see, here's the rub. When I say "it's true," that ISN'T to also say, "it's real."
You jump into conversations that are not directed at you, which is fine, but then you complain about how the comment that was not directed at you does not pertain to you and your beliefs.So, yes, there will definitely be a conceptual difference between my thinking and that of my fellow Christians who attempt to use Intelligent Design (and its epistemological outlay) to buttress their faith. Being that I'm not in the I.D. camp, I have a different epistemological outlay.
There will also be a conceptual difference, methodologically speaking, between me and those secularists who insist on subscribing to Philosophical Naturalism as part of their working praxis.
In what sense is it "special pleading"? I'm asking because you and @Kylie keep harping on this point without actually laying any conceptual groundwork. No, you both just assert it and the rest of us are supposed to just, I guess, go along with whatever you two ultra brilliant people have to say.This is the issue with you. I don't really care about philosophical arguments that do not match reality.
In the end just by defining god as a special case does not get you out of special pleading. That is what special pleading is. You need to demonstrate that the god is real and is uncaused. Just defining the god as uncaused without demonstration that it is, is special pleading.
Alright Mr. Troll.You jump into conversations that are not directed at you, which is fine, but then you complain about how the comment that was not directed at you does not pertain to you and your beliefs.
In what sense is it "special pleading"? I'm asking because you and @Kylie keep harping on this point without actually laying any conceptual groundwork. No, you both just assert it and the rest of us are supposed to just, I guess, go along with whatever you two ultra brilliant people have to say.
Name calling. huh.Alright Mr. Troll.
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