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redwards

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I notice the title of this forum includes the phrase, "Bridge Builders." That's an appropriate characterization of what I'd like to do. I know this forum has a number of atheists, but I suspect most of them stay in the ethics and science forums. I came to the forum to meet some people who wouldn't ordinarily ever talk to an atheist. I wanted to reach out.

You and I have fundamental disagreements. But it seems obvious that the best way for people with disagreements to understand each other better is for them to get to know each other. I recognize that atheists, as a group (if you can even call them that), are among the least trusted of all groups here in America. I think we could alleviate some of that if we got to know each other.

I'd like to get to know some of you. Hope you feel the same. But I'll understand if you simply ask me to move my thread elsewhere.

 

PolarBear3

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But it seems obvious that the best way for people with disagreements to understand each other better is for them to get to know each other.

I agree. I think if people get to know each other, then they are less likely to be so afraid of differences. So thanks for wanting to reach out.

So I'm wondering ... how did you become an atheist? What has been your faith journey (so to speak)?

Kathy
 
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redwards

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Well, I was raised more or less agnostic, predominantly by one parent. My grandmother used to take us to church on occasion, but all I really remember is not being able to sit still. My mom never pushed us one way or the other, and religion just wasn't a particularly important topic when I was a kid.

I didn't really get interested in religion until I was about 13 and a friend of mine (an adult) started teaching me about Christianity while I helped him with yardwork. I really liked the guy, and I was interested in the subject for a while. I talked to him about it for probably a week or two; asking questions, hearing the stories, and so on.

I told my mom all about what he had been telling me, and, to her great credit, she said almost nothing, just nodded, smiled, and let me talk. She trusted me to make my own decisions. I believe that, at the time, she may have had an aversion to organized churches, but not to religion, in particular. Her parents were religious.

At any rate, I eventually got around to asking my friend about other religions, and why so many different people believed so many different things if his religion was so obviously correct. His answers didn't satisfy me. And that was pretty much that; I gave up trying to buy into Christianity.

I've learned a whole lot more since then, obviously. I considered myself agnostic for a long time, because I thought being an atheist meant being absolutely positive that god was impossible, which I wasn't. But being an atheist doesn't mean that, and I eventually adopted the term because it's the most appropriate for what I believe.
 
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PolarBear3

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I thought being atheist meant believing that God doesn't exist and that being agnostic meant believing that God does exist but the person doesn't believe in any particular religion. How would you define atheist and agnostic?
 
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redwards

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I thought being atheist meant believing that God doesn't exist and that being agnostic meant believing that God does exist but the person doesn't believe in any particular religion. How would you define atheist and agnostic?

Some people will attack atheism as a faith position on the grounds that an atheist is making a faith-based argument that no gods could possibly exist, when it's impossible to technically rule out the existence of anything. However, I actually find that atheism is very rarely a faith position. It certainly isn't in my case.

Some people identify "strong atheist, weak atheist, strong agnostic, weak agnostic." I think that's kind of a pain, but I'll list the technical definitions:

Weak Atheist - I doubt the existence of any gods due to a lack of evidence.
Strong Atheist - I am certain that no gods exist.

Weak Agnostic - I have no idea if any gods exist.
Strong Agnostic - It is not possible to ever know if any gods exist.

If these are the definitions you're going by, I fit under "weak atheist." Personally, I think these are tiresome.

As to my beliefs. I believe in a thing on the basis of the strength of evidence for it. I don't believe that there's any empirical evidence which suggests the existence of a god, therefore I don't believe in any gods. That doesn't mean I'm certain that it's impossible. Many atheists will make tooth fairy / santa claus / unicorns comparisons here (the comparisons are a little belittling, I think, but they make a point). We disbelieve in these things on the grounds that they lack evidence, but that doesn't mean that any of them are categorically impossible.

A number of atheists are actually a little bit offended by the fact that the term 'atheist' exists. They would go so far as to ask if you intend to label everyone on the planet an "adragonist" due to a lack of belief in dragons. I tend to agree that the term becomes burdensome when you're always having to explain your beliefs anyway (not that I mind doing it here).
 
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Qyöt27

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I thought being atheist meant believing that God doesn't exist and that being agnostic meant believing that God does exist but the person doesn't believe in any particular religion. How would you define atheist and agnostic?
A certain level of word origins can explain a lot here, actually. The prefix a- denotes the lack of something. Obviously in the term 'atheist' it comes before 'theos', meaning god/gods. With 'agnostic' it comes before 'gnosis', or knowledge. And true to the term, agnostics deny the ability to know or at the very least personally claim not to know, generally in terms of specifics of the supernatural rather than of the supernatural in and of itself. The a- prefix is even sometimes used in the names of purely Christian theology, such as amillennialism.

As well, it deserves to be noted that atheistic belief structures do not always exclude belief in the supernatural. Technically, Buddhism could be called atheistic, in that it does not depend on the belief in a god or gods (even if the people practicing it commonly insert their own deities into it, and have over time formed a set of popular figures therein; Eastern cultures tend to be rather syncretistic in regard to religion).

A desire to affirm a positive or substance of belief rather than denote a negative or lack of belief. That was actually the catalyst for why this forum has both 'Atheist' and 'Humanist' Faith categories (or is it 'Secular Humanist'? It's been too long since I moused over one of those icons).

Many atheists will make tooth fairy / santa claus / unicorns comparisons here (the comparisons are a little belittling, I think, but they make a point).
I do have to admit, the Invisible Pink Unicorn does give me a chuckle, but then again I have an appreciation for satirical parody religions (Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, the Church of the SubGenius, Discordianism, etc.), even if what they're taking shots at is, superficially*, the religion I myself adhere to. You have to know how to laugh at yourself if you ever want to take yourself seriously, IMO.

*superficially, because I feel much of the ammo that such parody religions receive is largely from the stockpile gathered by those that constitute the culture known as the 'Modern Church' or popular religion, and as far as I'm concerned, they deserve all the criticism they get.
 
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redwards

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Call it what you will. Atheist is the easiest term. 'Humanist' sounds flighty, even to me, though none are so bad as the new movement to call ourselves 'brights'. Michael Shermer once conducted an enormous poll that essentially demonstrated that there's not a single good word for it. At any rate, I know a number of people who call themselves atheists, and not a single one of them subscribes to a positive belief in the absence of a god.

That's an attitude I can embrace. Plus, they have hilarious graphics.
 
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Ryft

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WELCOME

First of all, greetings to redwards. Welcome to ChristianForums.com generally, and welcome to the Bridge Builders sub-forum specifically. You are not going to find too many atheists in this section primarily because it is nestled well within a Christian environment (Congregation/Faith Groups/Bridge Builders). Since the general theme in these environments are theologically ecumenical, there is not much of interest to atheists, although I'm sure they are welcome.

Secondly, I have a bone to pick on the atheism/agnosticism issue—not with redwards personally but rather as a general rant. I need to get something off my chest.

ATHEISM: It's Not Complicated

It's really not as difficult as people tend to make it. Honestly. I don't understand the apparent fetish for obfuscation (despite its general instrumentality in subterfuge, which does make sense). And I'm not referring to anybody here specifically, understand, but surely anyone who has their finger on the pulse of philosophical polemics should be familiar with the frustrating persistence of gratuitous obfuscation in the language.

Like the term 'atheist'. I was formerly an atheist myself and, let me tell you, it's honestly not that difficult to understand. Perhaps too much stigma and pejorative rhetoric has been attached to it over the decades but truly, in the final analysis, it's very simple to understand what an atheist is. The term is derived from the Greek root theos and prefixed by a negating article; since theos is the term for 'God', its negation means "ungodly" (Gk. atheos) and "ungodliness" (Gk. atheotes).

Therefore an atheist is, very simply, someone who is godless—i.e., someone who consciously views the world and lives their life "without God" or as though God does not exist. "If I had to bet on whether there is a God or not, I would bet that there is not," writes Michael Shermer in How We Believe (1999). "Indeed, I live my life as if there was not a God." This attitude is exhibited either implicitly (weak atheism, they have not settled the question) or explicitly (strong atheism, they have settled the question).

Consider some parallels. If something is amoral then it is 'without morality'. If something is asymmetric then it is 'without symmetry'. If something is atypical then it is 'without typicality'. So any etymological appeal to the Greek will provide only that 'atheist' means "without God."

ATHEISM: Where the Complication Began

This is not complicated. I blame the likes of George Smith, Antony Flew, and Michael Martin for complicating the issue by asserting a new definition of atheism to strengthen the attempt at averting the burden of proof. This new definition of atheism, as "absence of God-belief," essentially began with George H. Smith (Atheism: The Case Against God, 1979) and was further popularized by Antony Flew (The Presumption of Atheism, 1984) and others such as Gordon Stein (An Anthology of Atheism and Rationalism, 1980), Michael Martin (Atheism: A Philosophical Justification, 1990), and Douglas Krueger (What is Atheism? A Short Introduction, 1998) and so forth. Martin in his book, like Smith and others, made an appeal to the original Greek and tried to conclude that "from this standpoint an atheist would simply be someone without a belief in God."

But nowhere within the etymology can there be found the Greek word pistos (belief). Every attempt to fraudulently import the 'belief' property into the etymological analysis is intellectually irresponsible. It might succeed as a newly minted philosophical creed but neither etymology nor history will support it. Despite its popularity, this new definition is illegitimate and conflicts with the historically rich definition of atheism as "godless" or the conscious rejection of theism, as explained in the Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology, Etymological Dictionary of English Language, Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy, Oxford Companion to Philosophy, and so forth. Michael Shermer recognized this in his book How We Believe (1999), as does Paul Edwards, Kai Nielsen, and Ernest Nagel, who wrote in A Defence of Atheism (1965) that "atheism is not to be identified with sheer unbelief . . . Thus, a child who has received no religious instruction and has never heard about God, is not an atheist—for he is not denying any theistic claims."

AGNOSTICISM: It Doesn't Stand Alone

There has been an additional level of complication added by the popularity of thinking that agnosticism is some kind of third option, so to speak, in an arena otherwise dominated by theists and atheists. It is usually proposed by people who don't want to acknowledge that the world really is drawn in contrasts of black and white, people who want a gray area in which to hide. But in the name of good and proper thinking, it is not a third option. It is actually a subset of both theism and atheism: one can be an agnostic theist just as one can be an agnostic atheist.

What is an agnostic theist? The answer is dramatically obvious: a Deist (or its mystic cousin, a fideist). They consciously accept the existence of a God (theist) but, it is said, they don't know whether he exists or not (agnostic). Contrast this with an agnostic atheist. They consciously reject the existence of God (atheist) but, it is said, they don't know whether he exists or not (agnostic). Often times agnosticism is used as a synonym for 'weak atheism' but this is ultimately erroneous. Although 'atheism' is compatible with agnosticism, it is not equivalent to it because 'theism' is equally compatible with agnosticism. Ergo, by identifying as simply an agnostic, one has not identified where they stand on the question of God's existence, whether they are an atheist or theist. The world is stubbornly black and white.

One may be an 'agnostic theist' or an 'agnostic atheist' because agnosticism regards the condition of one's knowledge (Gk. gnosis) whereas theism and atheism describe the condition of one's relationship with respect to God. For example, an 'agnostic atheist' is someone who says that he doesn't know whether or not God exists but lives his life as though God doesn't, while an 'agnostic theist' is someone who also admits that he doesn't know whether or not God exists but lives his life as though God does. These distinctions are characterized by the significant difference between 'belief' propositions (doxastic) and 'knowledge' propositions (epistemic). Both atheism and theism regard the beliefs we confess, while agnosticism regards the epistemic weakness thereof.
 
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Zoness

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Labels aren't always a bad thing, they can get really nasty when people use them to stereotype groups of people and inflict damage on them in an emotional, social, or even physical sense. In a better sense, at least for us Ecumenists (people who try and bridge the gaps in theology and churches) we use labels to organize the many many different schools of thought into categories we can easily distinguish and call upon in discussion.

Labels have good and bad sides--that is true of all subjects not just Christianity. God bless
 
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Izdaari Eristikon

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Hi, Redwards! Nice to meet you, and welcome to the forum. You seem to be good company, so I'm glad to have the chance to get to you know you better.

I'm a former "weak atheist" myself, so your position makes perfect sense to me, though that's not where I'm at now. My faith icon and custom title pretty much tell you where that is, though I'll be happy to elucidate if you're interested.


 
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redwards

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I'll grant you that, I just dislike the many arguments that stem from them. In particular, the notion that someone does or doesn't believe a thing because some people associate it with their label.

Almost all of the atheists I know have been accused many times of harboring a position which they don't actually hold, simply on account of the word 'atheist'. To be perfectly honest with you, I've never met nor heard of anyone who falls under the technical definition of a 'strong atheist'. Yet I hear that charge thrown around constantly.
 
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redwards

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Hi, Redwards! Nice to meet you, and welcome to the forum. You seem to be good company, so I'm glad to have the chance to get to you know you better.
Thanks for the welcome.
I'm a former "weak atheist" myself, so your position makes perfect sense to me, though that's not where I'm at now. My faith icon and custom title pretty much tell you where that is, though I'll be happy to elucidate if you're interested.
Mind if I ask what changed your mind?
 
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Ryft

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I'd have to say, I can only conclude that you're far too concerned with labels.

An interesting conclusion that does not follow in any obvious way. Hmm.

Nevertheless, I am not "too concerned with labels." I am concerned about intellectually honest and meaningful dialogue, that's all, seeking to avoid fallacious equivocations and rhetoric (and responses that ignore the merits of the argument, addressing instead the character of the person, n'est-ce pas?). Things that derail meaningful conversation should be identified and avoided, I think. Such is the lament of Aristotle: "How many a dispute could have been deflated into a single paragraph if the disputants had dared to define their terms."

I submit that labels are necessary if people want to communicate ideas without tedious verbosity. But those labels must be clearly identified and understood. I stand in opposition to those who attempt to muddy words needlessly. I want to keep words clear and accessible. Efforts at bridge building get frustrated when people talk past each other. I think people should maintain labels with meaning and clarity so that dialogue can be productive and foster a genuine sharing of ideas. THAT is what I'm concerned with (in addition to the principles of logic and critical thinking). But these are my own intellectual values. I realize that not everyone shares them.
 
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Izdaari Eristikon

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Thanks for the welcome.

Mind if I ask what changed your mind?
My path to faith led through C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien, who first convinced me that the claims of Christianity deserved serious consideration. From there, I went to Christian apologetics. Without getting into a debate on it, which I'm not interested in, I investigated the historicity of the Gospels, the evidence for the resurrection of Christ, and the many OT prophecies he fulfilled, and found the evidence to be convincing. Not positive proof, not definitive, but probable by a preponderance of the evidence. That's as far as reason and empirical evidence could take me. From that point, the decision to take the 'leap of faith' was necessarily an act of will and intuition. It took me several years after concluding it was probably true to integrate enough pieces of the cosmic jigsaw puzzle to decide that was how they best fit together, and to decide to make the commitment.

Ok, my turn for a question: You've told us what you don't believe in: any god or gods. That's all very well, but a lack of belief doesn't tell us much about you. Everybody has a philosophy, whether they know it or not, whether they'll admit it or not. What's yours? What do you believe in?
 
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redwards

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Yes, you seem interested in that.

I wouldn't disagree that, if one were conducting a proper debate, defining terms beforehand would be a good idea. I just don't think it's necessary to first pigeonhole the belief system of every person on the planet in order to have a friendly conversation.
 
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