arsenokoités

]RiSeN[ · Oct 8, 2007

Why dont homosexuals pick the word "fornication/porneia" to quabble over? Hmmm?

Greek4202. porneia, por-ni'-ah; from Grk4203; harlotry (includ. adultery and incest); fig. idolatry:-fornication.
Greek4203. porneuo, porn-yoo'-o; from Grk4204; to act the harlot, i.e. (lit.) indulge unlawful lust (of either sex), or (fig.) practise idolatry:-commit (fornication).
Greek4204. porne, por'-nay; fem. of Grk4205; a strumpet; fig. an idolater:-harlot, harlot.
Greek4205. pornos, por'-nos; from pernemi (to sell; akin to the base of Grk4097); a (male) prostitute (as venal), i.e. (by anal.) a debauchee (libertine):-fornicator, whoremonger.

Zaac · Oct 8, 2007

Brieuse said:
You got something better perhaps?

Yes. It's called God's Truth as plainly given by His Word. All of the word studies. All of the commentaried opinions in the word studies with their "perhaps" and "most likelies". Yet you guys are more apt to believe this stuff over what God says.

Anybody with 2 brain cells can see that Satan's work prevails in the condemning of people because of their sexual preference.

That is indeed of the devil because God hasn't condmened anyone because of their sexual preference nor does His Word say that being of an orientation is wrong and sinful.

He deals with OBEDIENCE. And in doing so, He addresses sexual immorality as a sin for the homosexual AND the heterosexual.

Brieuse · Oct 8, 2007

Zaac said:
Yes. It's called God's Truth as plainly given by His Word. All of the word studies. All of the commentaried opinions in the word studies with their "perhaps" and "most likelies". Yet you guys are more apt to believe this stuff over what God says.

That is indeed of the devil because God hasn't condmened anyone because of their sexual preference nor does His Word say that being of an orientation is wrong and sinful.

He deals with OBEDIENCE. And in doing so, He addresses sexual immorality as a sin for the homosexual AND the heterosexual.

The studies are of God's Word :-s

So it's our God's Word against yours

Yes, homophobia is Satan's work.

Zaac · Oct 8, 2007

BigBadWlf said:
It would seem you are incorrect

If you say so. But haggling over words so that you have something to rest the notion of homosexual hate and prejudice does nothing but show your own prejudice.

Once could pull out a laundry list of sins listed in scripture, activities that are not considered sin by todays standards. What are we to make of those and the lack of hatred directed at those who say sport tattoos or shave their beards or farmers?

(what about a clean shaven farmer with a tattoo?)

If you pull out a laundry list of sins from Scripture, they are still sins. Today's STANDARD for sin is Jesus Christ just as it always has been. And He hasn't changed.

It would be just as easy to suggest you do not wish to have anything to do with the truth and that is why you are ignoring all the studies that provide insights into translations you would rather not have anyone know about.

yall are repeating commentaries that have been around for years. You're repeating stuff that was taken from others opinions. Folks know about them. Mature Christians just align themselves with the FULL COUNSEL of God's Word instead of the twisted conclusions that homosexuals have revolving around one word.

I think it would be rather much better to direct your attention to the OP and note how you are not addressing the topic but rather flaming both he poster and the many researchers involved in the study of history, etiology and theology. Such attacks do nothing but damage your reputation and diminish whatever merit your position might hold.

Man you can keep that sillyness to yourself. It's a flame because you weren't told what you want to hear.

In another thread it was asked why an assumption about sexual orientation was being made. It must be noted that heterosexuals also oppose anti-gay discrimination just as whites can and do oppose racism.

You are correct you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. John 8:32 the truth is that there is good reason to believe that arsenokoites does not mean homosexual.

Yes, it's called deception.

Apparently you wish the evidence for this translation would conform to your will. But it does not.

Gosh I don't need anything to conform to my will. As I told someone else, if that were so, gay people wouldn't have any problems where I'm concerned being in sexual relationships with whomever they chose.

Are you willing to lay this possibly incorrect translation aside? You seem fighting very hard to keep it and fighting very hard to ignore and dismiss evidence that you do not like.

If you can align it with the rest of God's Word without making Him a liar, sure.

And that is the crux. If, as the evidence is showing, the translation is wrong, then the position you are making is without merit.

We are back to your first claim in your post. discrimination is dependant upon a single word

[/QUOTE]

Naah. The crux is that neither you nor anyone throughout history could present anything with these twisted translations of yours and why God's Word doesn't say what it says without breeding confusion and undoing the inerrant continuity of the WHOLE of God's Word.

OllieFranz · Oct 8, 2007

Splayd said:
snips
Just double checking your statements here. The word used in 1 Corinthians is the same word used in Leviticus 20:13 in the Septuagint? If so wouldn't that mean it was being used for at least the second time in 1 Corinthians? Wouldn't the obvious reasoning then be that Paul was using the word to mean the same thing it was already (and apparently only) being used for at the time of his writing it?

The separate words arsenos and koiten are common enough in Greek. The new element in 1st Corinthians is that while in the LXX it is translating two individual words as two individual words, in Paul's letters, it is a compound word. There is a difficulty in translating a compound word based only on its parts. Consider the English word "ladykiller." Based only on its parts, you could assume that it refers to a serial murderer whose victims are women, but you would be wrong. There is nothing in the component parts to suggest that the person is a serial seducer of women.

OllieFranz · Oct 8, 2007

]Fa||eN[;39563334 said:
Why dont homosexuals pick the word "fornication/porneia" to quabble over? Hmmm?

Greek4202. porneia, por-ni'-ah; from Grk4203; harlotry (includ. adultery and incest); fig. idolatry:-fornication.
Greek4203. porneuo, porn-yoo'-o; from Grk4204; to act the harlot, i.e. (lit.) indulge unlawful lust (of either sex), or (fig.) practise idolatry:-commit (fornication).
Greek4204. porne, por'-nay; fem. of Grk4205; a strumpet; fig. an idolater:-harlot, harlot.
Greek4205. pornos, por'-nos; from pernemi (to sell; akin to the base of Grk4097); a (male) prostitute (as venal), i.e. (by anal.) a debauchee (libertine):-fornicator, whoremonger.

Maybe because that word has nothing to say about same-sex relationships in general. Yes, sexual immorality can occur in either same-sex or cross-sex actions, but there is nothing in the meaning of the word, or in any Biblical passage in which it is used to indicate that all same-sex acts are immoral simply because they are same-sex.

]RiSeN[ · Oct 8, 2007

OllieFranz said:
Maybe because that word has nothing to say about same-sex relationships in general. Yes, sexual immorality can occur in either same-sex or cross-sex actions, but there is nothing in the meaning of the word, or in any Biblical passage in which it is used to indicate that all same-sex acts are immoral simply because they are same-sex.

Do you even know what fornication is ?

OllieFranz · Oct 8, 2007

]Fa||eN[;39565468 said:
Do you even know what fornication is ?

Fornication comes from the same Greek word that we are considering, "pornos," prostitute. In English, it usually refers to all immoral extra-marital sex that is not adultery. Adultery is extra-marital sex where one or both partners is married to someone else.

There is nothing in either the Greek word or the English word that specifies that it includes all same-sex sexual activity simply because it is same-sex.

Yes same-sex activity can be fornication, if it otherwise meets the definition of fornication. It can also be adultery. But just as some cross-sex sexual activity can be neither adultery nor fornication, so can some same-sex sexual activity.

]RiSeN[ · Oct 8, 2007

OllieFranz said:
Maybe because that word has nothing to say about same-sex relationships in general. Yes, sexual immorality can occur in either same-sex or cross-sex actions, but there is nothing in the meaning of the word, or in any Biblical passage in which it is used to indicate that all same-sex acts are immoral simply because they are same-sex.

"In reply he said: Did YOU not read that he who created them from [the] beginning made them male and female". -Matt 19:4

Its immoral because it is fornication. A sexual act(of whatever kind) outside of the God given bond and institution of marriage(Matt 19:6) is a sin.

And Matthew 19:9 makes your claim that fornication is simply meant as prostitution only is quite bogus IMO.

MrPirate · Oct 9, 2007

]Fa||eN[;39563334 said:
Why dont homosexuals pick the word "fornication/porneia" to quabble over? Hmmm?

Greek4202. porneia, por-ni'-ah; from Grk4203; harlotry (includ. adultery and incest); fig. idolatry:-fornication.
Greek4203. porneuo, porn-yoo'-o; from Grk4204; to act the harlot, i.e. (lit.) indulge unlawful lust (of either sex), or (fig.) practise idolatry:-commit (fornication).
Greek4204. porne, por'-nay; fem. of Grk4205; a strumpet; fig. an idolater:-harlot, harlot.
Greek4205. pornos, por'-nos; from pernemi (to sell; akin to the base of Grk4097); a (male) prostitute (as venal), i.e. (by anal.) a debauchee (libertine):-fornicator, whoremonger.

Reference the OP

And at the very very worst:

Flaming those posting the evidence (read any post for examples)
Flaming the historians, linguists, theologians and researchers (that person is the member of a minoritytherefore he/she is biased and we can ignore anything they say.)

Not addressing the topic of the OP just flaming

MrPirate · Oct 9, 2007

Zaac said:
Yes. It's called God's Truth as plainly given by His Word. All of the word studies. All of the commentaried opinions in the word studies with their "perhaps" and "most likelies". Yet you guys are more apt to believe this stuff over what God says.

The point being you are rejecting what the word of God says in favor of what you want it to say

That is indeed of the devil because God hasn't condmened anyone because of their sexual preference nor does His Word say that being of an orientation is wrong and sinful.

Once again the point of the OP is the fact that you cannot support this claim

He deals with OBEDIENCE. And in doing so, He addresses sexual immorality as a sin for the homosexual AND the heterosexual.

The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals. It's just that they need more supervision. ~Lynn Lavner

MrPirate · Oct 9, 2007

Brieuse said:
Yes, homophobia is Satan's work.

MrPirate · Oct 9, 2007

Zaac said:
If you say so. But haggling over words so that you have something to rest the notion of homosexual hate and prejudice does nothing but show your own prejudice.

If you pull out a laundry list of sins from Scripture, they are still sins. Today's STANDARD for sin is Jesus Christ just as it always has been. And He hasn't changed.

So this means you don’t shave, cut your hair, wear a wedding ring, eat shellfish, wear poly cotton blends or allow people into you church who wear glasses…right?

yall are repeating commentaries that have been around for years. You're repeating stuff that was taken from others opinions. Folks know about them. Mature Christians just align themselves with the FULL COUNSEL of God's Word instead of the twisted conclusions that homosexuals have revolving around one word.

Reference the OP:

Flaming those posting the evidence (read any post for examples)

Flaming the historians, linguists, theologians and researchers (that person is the member of a minority…therefore he/she is biased and we can ignore anything they say.)

Man you can keep that sillyness to yourself. It's a flame because you weren't told what you want to hear.

No, it is a flame because it is a personal attack on people who have done nothing but be honest

In another thread it was asked why an assumption about sexual orientation was being made. It must be noted that heterosexuals also oppose anti-gay discrimination just as whites can and do oppose racism.

I notice you ignored this point

Yes, it's called deception.

Yes prejudice is deception.

Gosh I don't need anything to conform to my will. As I told someone else, if that were so, gay people wouldn't have any problems where I'm concerned being in sexual relationships with whomever they chose.

Your denial contradicts your ongoing attempt to discredit the truth

If you can align it with the rest of God's Word without making Him a liar, sure.

It is in alignment with God’s word. It is your position that contradicts the word of God.

Naah. The crux is that neither you nor anyone throughout history could present anything with these twisted translations of yours and why God's Word doesn't say what it says without breeding confusion and undoing the inerrant continuity of the WHOLE of God's Word.

and here you prove BigBadWlf's point

MrPirate · Oct 9, 2007

]Fa||eN[;39574830 said:
"In reply he said: Did YOU not read that he who created them from [the] beginning made them male and female". -Matt 19:4

Its immoral because it is fornication. A sexual act(of whatever kind) outside of the God given bond and institution of marriage(Matt 19:6) is a sin.

And Matthew 19:9 makes your claim that fornication is simply meant as prostitution only is quite bogus IMO.

Which has nothing at all to do with the OP

davedjy · Oct 9, 2007

Zaac said:
That site is almost laughable. Yall continue this vain attempt to discredit what God's Word clearly says about committing homosexual fornication with someone else's work in which they say

Saying a site is "almost laughable" does not discredit it in anyway. What is laughable and probably, more so, sad is translating a word to "homosexual" while simultaneously breaking every rule of Biblical Exegesis to do it. It is also laughable that this word has been so inconsistent in translation by the translators, yet of course, you fail to see that. You want it to mean "homosexual" as it supports your anti-gay Fundamental argument. YOU are clearly dodging the point I made.

Most of the problems you anti-gay arguers in this forum have, is that you have been caught in numerous hole-filled arguments. Newguy101 said that "it's based upon the early tradition of the word "Arsenokoitai" being homosexual," and that we are "arguing with tradition", and yet it wasn't translated as "homosexual" in it's earliest forms, and I proved that.

davedjy · Oct 9, 2007

Brieuse said:
So which is it then? Masturbation or Homosexuals?

I wish the narrow minded Christians would make their minds up.

It's most likely, neither, as the best translation of the word probably suggests that it is a promiscuous man. The word taken a part merely means "man", and "many beds".

Apollo Celestio · Oct 9, 2007

Hehe, The Accuser..

Phinehas2 · Oct 9, 2007

Dear MrPirate,

the translation of the word arsenokoités from 1 Corinthians is brought up a lot in these threads.

Thats because it condemns same-sex sex. NT Passages which countenance same-sex sex havent been brought up because there arent any !!

When evidence is presented that the word does not translate as homosexual many dismiss that evidence yet provide no corroborating evidence that arsenokoités actually does mean homosexual.

To know the word of God one be seeking what God is imparting, not what God doesnt say. To try and prove the Bible doesnt say something is evidence that one has their own ideas and want God to agree J
I have just looked through a dozen translations and only one says homosexuals. I believe the translation homosexuals is only partly right as the definition of this modern word is having a same-sex attraction and not always but sometimes behaviour.

If you insist that arsenokoités means homosexual then show us some evidence to support that claim.

Well firstly would you believe the evidence?
Secondly the evidence has been shown to you, considerable evidence, 18 or so chapters yet you still dont believe.

The fact is. God is love, love is mentioned more than anything else in the Bible but if I dont accept the translation you cant prove to me God is love, especially if I chose to believe the bit in John 3:16 which suggests that without Jesus we will perish.
Gods purpose is man and woman, there is no other relationship countenanced, the only alternative mentioned and countenanced is celibacy.

]RiSeN[ · Oct 9, 2007

MrPirate said:
Which has nothing at all to do with the OP

Right .. because the OP defends your erroneous position and claims.

Now your just sticking your fingers in your ears an chanting "arsenokoités", "arsenokoités", "arsenokoités",

"Everyone look away from all the other evidence in the bible and stay focused only on what we present in light of our pro-gay agenda!".

Now whos being scripturally and intellectually dishonest?

Nice try.

MrPirate · Oct 9, 2007

davedjy said:
It's most likely, neither, as the best translation of the word probably suggests that it is a promiscuous man. The word taken a part merely means "man", and "many beds".

arsenokoites is a plural first declension noun. It appears, in 1 Corinthians 6:9 as without an article. The word koitai, without the arseno- prefix, is feminine. Most first declension nouns in Greek are. that makes arsenokoites a feminine plural. So it is a man in the beds of many women.

But we are here asking for evidence that arsenokoites translates as homosexual from those who claim so.so far no one has offered up any evidence to support that translation

arsenokoités

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