Arminians: Please 'Splain Ephesians 1

[jomarc]

I believe that the Calvinism/Arminianism battle is futile at times. But i must confess that as I read Ephesians 1 I must sympathize with those who lean toward Calvinism.

I was raised with an Arminianism upbringing. But if I embrace that "theology" it would appear that I must throw Ephesians 1 "out the door"....along with some other passages such as those found in Romans 8 and Romans 9. This does not seem right. For I have been told that we are not to 'pick and choose' the verses we wish to incorporate into our lives.

So....my dear Brothers who lean toward Arminianism....please 'Splain Ephisians 1 to me.

 

[WinBySurrender]

I believe that the Calvinism/Arminianism battle is futile at times. But i must confess that as I read Ephesians 1 I must sympathize with those who lean toward Calvinism.

I was raised with an Arminianism upbringing. But if I embrace that "theology" it would appear that I must throw Ephesians 1 "out the door"....along with some other passages such as those found in Romans 8 and Romans 9. This does not seem right. For I have been told that we are not to 'pick and choose' the verses we wish to incorporate into our lives.

So....my dear Brothers who lean toward Arminianism....please 'Splain Ephisians 1 to me.

How about instead we challenge proponents of both theologians to compare the major points of difference between Calvin and Arminius. Not anyone's opinion of those differences, not their students, not their biographers. Let's go back to the actual writings of Calvin and Arminius and find where they disagree.

Know what you'll find?

That they didn't really disagree on much. So the discussions and arguments are pointless. Read the Bible! Pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit! Proceed from there. You will all be a lot better off following Christ, than looking back through 400 murky years of history to study two dead theologians.

 

[His_disciple3]

I believe that the Calvinism/Arminianism battle is futile at times. But i must confess that as I read Ephesians 1 I must sympathize with those who lean toward Calvinism.

I was raised with an Arminianism upbringing. But if I embrace that "theology" it would appear that I must throw Ephesians 1 "out the door"....along with some other passages such as those found in Romans 8 and Romans 9. This does not seem right. For I have been told that we are not to 'pick and choose' the verses we wish to incorporate into our lives.

So....my dear Brothers who lean toward Arminianism....please 'Splain Ephisians 1 to me.

I don't know if I qualify as an Arminian or not, but I definity believe that the doctrine of grace according to calvinism is a false teaching, in saying this I am not saying that the elect, predestination or election before time begin is not in scriptures, for they truely are and I am not willing to cut out any part of scriptures. but if you have been on both sides then you must confess that to be a calvinist you must cut out more scriptures, or at least change their meaning to promote calvinism than you do to promote arminianism, for example God is not a respect of persons. the bible clearly teaches that by one man's(Adam) sin, sin entered into the world but by one man's righteousness many (not all) can be redeemed. if God caused all to sin but said that through faith I will redeem, paid their debt, and don't offer that to all that was caused to sin By Adam then He is a respect of persons! which my friend in my book this just can't be.
Jesus not only covered our sins says John but the sins of the whole world, Jesus said If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me. If you believe you have life, if you believe not you are condemned already, the bride and the groom say come let whosoever that thrist, come! All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God, "All' means "all" have sinned But Jesus will lift "all" men don't Mean "ALL" will be given a chance to turn from their sins? and I think that greatest word that seperates the two doctrines is the determining factor in election which if you lean toward calvinism you have to avoid at all cost, that word is "FOREKNOWLEDGE" so with all this said and I have only given a few scriptures that calvinist omit or change the meaning of, to get scriptures to line up with calvinism, I will let scriptures explain Ephes. to you :

1 Peter 1:1-3
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
KJV
if through sanctification, obedience and the sprinkling of the Blood of Jesus Christ is determining factors as peter clearly states, it has to be by His foreknowledge of whom would be sanctified, and obedient and have the sprinkling of the Blood, to determine whom would be elected/predestined, through adoption.
election and choice both are clearly in scriptures, and to proclaim one without the other, from either side is just simply to deny scriptures , man cannot live by bread alone but BY EVERY WORD OF GOD!

 

[Skala]

@ His_disciple:

But what did God foreknew? Not actions. But people themselves.

Not a single time in the bible does it say that God foreknew faith, and then chose on that basis.

Not once.

 

[His_disciple3]

@ His_disciple:

But what did God foreknew? Not actions. But people themselves.

Not a single time in the bible does it say that God foreknew faith, and then chose on that basis.

Not once.

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

well somethings aren't mentioned in the Bible; what was Jesus writing in the sand when the people were going to stone the lady. But I believe that since the verse says through santification, unto obedience and the sprinkling of the Blood, that this is the knowledge that God foreknew of. John saw the tribulation saints In heaven before the tribulation took part, If God allowed John to see that. you don't think that God foreknew who would be sanctified, and who would obey His calling and come under the Blood, to me that would be a give me. does the Bible say trinty But I believe in the great triune God. does it say rapture, well rapture is a taken up, 1thes, speaks of a taken up so I believe in a rapture, if the Bible says that we are saved by His grace through faith, then to me the faith would be the determining factor of who is in and who is not, Abraham was counted righteous by his faith, to me I see the Bible as telling us what He foreknew not only once but numberous times. if ye believe ye are not condemned , but if you believe not ye are condemned already, doesn't say if you are elected you are not condemned.

 

[Skala]

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

well somethings aren't mentioned in the Bible; what was Jesus writing in the sand when the people were going to stone the lady. But I believe that since the verse says through santification, unto obedience and the sprinkling of the Blood, that this is the knowledge that God foreknew of. John saw the tribulation saints In heaven before the tribulation took part, If God allowed John to see that. you don't think that God foreknew who would be sanctified, and who would obey His calling and come under the Blood, to me that would be a give me. does the Bible say trinty But I believe in the great triune God. does it say rapture, well rapture is a taken up, 1thes, speaks of a taken up so I believe in a rapture, if the Bible says that we are saved by His grace through faith, then to me the faith would be the determining factor of who is in and who is not, Abraham was counted righteous by his faith, to me I see the Bible as telling us what He foreknew not only once but numberous times. if ye believe ye are not condemned , but if you believe not ye are condemned already, doesn't say if you are elected you are not condemned.

The elect are those that believe.

They believe because they are elect, See Romans 8:29-30

They are "called and justified" on the basis of being "foreknown and predestined", not vice versa. Do you understand the implication of that?

Not surprisingly, this is the same principle taught in Acts 13:48..the ones believed did so on account of being appointed to eternal life, not vice versa.

The Bible is consistent with itself.

 

[His_disciple3]

The elect are those that believe.

They believe because they are elect, See Romans 8:29-30

They are "called and justified" on the basis of being "foreknown and predestined", not vice versa. Do you understand the implication of that?

Not surprisingly, this is the same principle taught in Acts 13:48..the ones believed did so on account of being appointed to eternal life, not vice versa.

The Bible is consistent with itself.

I don't won't to break any room rules here so this will be my last Post< I hope :


Romans 8:29-30
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
KJV
see this is about whom He foreknew. everytime you guys bring this verse Up I am reminded of the ones that were cast out on judgement days as Jesus said to depart from Me I never KNEW you! those that He foreknew would have to be referring to the saved, So He foreknew who would be saved. again are we saved by our election or by our faith, what saith scriptures: by our faith! so by verse 29 they were saved before He predestinated, how could this be? By his Foreknowledge He knew who would be saved so there fore he foreknew them!


Acts 13:48
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
KJV

ok same principle applies here. we can't believe in God before we know God. But God being omniscience can predestinate before we believe, so to put it in order, it would have to be By His foreknowledge He elects/predestinates, then calls, then justifies, then glorifies, I would think that I would be called and justified and Glorified , the minute one is predestined/elected, but clearly that is not the way for we can't. so my question with Acts 13 is for those that were ordained. it says here that they all believed, but does it says why they believed or if God made them believe or if they had a choice to believe, could one of these ordained, decided not to believe?

 

[Skala]

So He foreknew who would be saved.

The word "foreknow" here doesn't merely refer to a passive, intellectual acquiring of information. It is an action on God's part. For God to foreknow people means to actively set his love upon them.

You are trying to make it say that God simply "knew about" future believers. What you're really trying to say is that God "foreknew" their faith, and by extension, foreknew believers. But that's a big ole can of eisegesis brother.

Rom 8:29-30 is clear that men are "called and justified" (saved) on the basis of being foreknown and predestined.

You are asserting the opposite. You are asserting that they are foreknown on the basis of being called and justified (saved). That is completely backwards and opposite from what Paul says.

The order is:
Foreknown, predestined, called, justified

The order is NOT:
Called, justified, foreknown, predestined

Again, you are trying desperately hard to come to the conclusion that God foreknows people because he foresees that they are called and justified. But that is not what Paul says. It says their calling and justification is based on, predicatedon being foreknown and predestined.

The ones he foreknows, he predestines. The ones he predestines, he calls. The ones he calls, he justifies.

Why do you so desperately want to disagree with the Bible?

again are we saved by our election or by our faith, what saith scriptures: by our faith

You're confusing two things. Election and justification are two different things. Nobody here has ever asserted that justification is by anything other than faith.

 

[Kermmie]

The elect are those that believe. They believe because they are elect, See Romans 8:29-30

They are "called and justified" on the basis of being "foreknown and predestined", not vice versa. Do you understand the implication of that?

Not surprisingly, this is the same principle taught in Acts 13:48..the ones believed did so on account of being appointed to eternal life, not vice versa.

The Bible is consistent with itself.

Kermmie: The "elect" are all those WHO HAVE CHOSEN TO ACCEPT SALVATION THROUGH GRACE, BY FAITH. They were not cherrypicked like people getting accepted to College...God is no respecter of persons as though He sits on His throne in Heaven and says, "Oh, John Doe will sin and go to Hell and Mary Smth will be obedient and come to Heaven." People chose God USING THEIR FREE WILL. God does not interfere with our free will. If He did, there would no purpose for His giving us that freedom. God is sovereign in the sense that He knows everything from the beginning to the end so He already knew who the elect would be before they became elect. He knows our very thoughts and actions before we act them out, as He is all-knowing. God did not make us as robots on a string. This is one major reason I reject Calvinism.

 

[Skala]

Kermmie: The "elect" are all those WHO HAVE CHOSEN TO ACCEPT SALVATION THROUGH GRACE, BY FAITH. They were not cherrypicked like people getting accepted to College...God is no respecter of persons as though He sits on His throne in Heaven and says, "Oh, John Doe will sin and go to Hell and Mary Smth will be obedient and come to Heaven." People chose God USING THEIR FREE WILL. God does not interfere with our free will. If He did, there would no purpose for His giving us that freedom. God is sovereign in the sense that He knows everything from the beginning to the end so He already knew who the elect would be before they became elect. He knows our very thoughts and actions before we act them out, as He is all-knowing. God did not make us as robots on a string. This is one major reason I reject Calvinism.

Acts 13:48. Go read it.

 

[Hammster]

Kermmie: The "elect" are all those WHO HAVE CHOSEN TO ACCEPT SALVATION THROUGH GRACE, BY FAITH. They were not cherrypicked like people getting accepted to College...God is no respecter of persons as though He sits on His throne in Heaven and says, "Oh, John Doe will sin and go to Hell and Mary Smth will be obedient and come to Heaven." People chose God USING THEIR FREE WILL. God does not interfere with our free will. If He did, there would no purpose for His giving us that freedom. God is sovereign in the sense that He knows everything from the beginning to the end so He already knew who the elect would be before they became elect. He knows our very thoughts and actions before we act them out, as He is all-knowing. God did not make us as robots on a string. This is one major reason I reject Calvinism.

Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Care to take a stab at exegeting the passage?

<*(((><

 

[Kermmie]

Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Care to take a stab at exegeting the passage?

<*(((><

***************************************************

Hammster:
Care to take a stab at exegeting the passage?


Kermmie:

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Kermmie: God manages the Salvation of those who CONFORM to His Plan for All Humanity. The General Plan is predestined, not the individual who accepts or rejects the Plan.

29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Kermmie: All of humanity is given a choice and this is predestination/foreknowledge in a nutshell. Accept Christ and be saved, reject Christ and perish. Salvation is offered to every human being.

30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Kermmie: In simple terms, Accept Christ's sacrifice. A person who accepts Christ as their personal Savior is justified and called a son of god and becomes heir to God's blessings and His Kingdom now and in the future in eternity. Simple definition: The Elect.


1 Timothy 2:3-4
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

[WinBySurrender]

Romans 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

"Arminians"? You attempt to lump those who are not Calvinists in with the "lost salvation" folk? Kind of disingenuous of you, old friend. Still, even that is a false accusation on my part, because Arminius did not believe salvation could be lost, either.

Briefly, though, this is the only clear passage that states how God predestined anyone. Note that it states that He predestines those whom He foreknew [would believe in Jesus as Savior] to be conformed to the image of Jesus. To view predestination in this fashion does not violate God's sovereignty, as He not only knows who will believe, but He also is the sole power involved in salvation. Only God can call, only God can convict, only God can accept. Man has a minor part in salvation, and that is simple belief. Yet God still must acknowledge that belief/faith as genuine and true. Only He knows if it is, only He can reward that belief with eternal life. Eternal life cannot be lost by the receiver, who had nothing to do with it beyond simple faith to begin with.

 

[Hammster]

***************************************************

Hammster:
Care to take a stab at exegeting the passage?


Kermmie:

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Kermmie: God manages the Salvation of those who CONFORM to His Plan for All Humanity. The General Plan is predestined, not the individual who accepts or rejects the Plan.

I can't even remotely figure out how you got that from this verse. And this is the easy one. God works all things fir good for the called.

29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Kermmie: All of humanity is given a choice and this is predestination/foreknowledge in a nutshell. Accept Christ and be saved, reject Christ and perish. Salvation is offered to every human being.

This may be your view, but you certainly didn't get that from this verse. Again, pretty straight forward. There are some He foreknew who will be conformed to the image of Jesus.

30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Kermmie: In simple terms, Accept Christ's sacrifice. A person who accepts Christ as their personal Savior is justified and called a son of god and becomes heir to God's blessings and His Kingdom now and in the future in eternity. Simple definition: The Elect.

Once again, this may be your view, but you cannot get that from this verse. Very simple question: according to this verse, who is justified?

1 Timothy 2:3-4
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Amen, if taken in context with the proceeding and following verses.

<*(((><

 

[Hammster]

"Arminians"? You attempt to lump those who are not Calvinists in with the "lost salvation" folk? Kind of disingenuous of you, old friend. Still, even that is a false accusation on my part, because Arminius did not believe salvation could be lost, either.

Briefly, though, this is the only clear passage that states how God predestined anyone. Note that it states that He predestines those whom He foreknew [would believe in Jesus as Savior] to be conformed to the image of Jesus. To view predestination in this fashion does not violate God's sovereignty, as He not only knows who will believe, but He also is the sole power involved in salvation. Only God can call, only God can convict, only God can accept. Man has a minor part in salvation, and that is simple belief. Yet God still must acknowledge that belief/faith as genuine and true. Only He knows if it is, only He can reward that belief with eternal life. Eternal life cannot be lost by the receiver, who had nothing to do with it beyond simple faith to begin with.

Where did I say anything about Arminians? I don't even use the term.

But let me ask you something. Why did you add to the verse? It doesn't say those He foreknew would believe. But if you do believe that, you have a really big problem. It cannot fit with v. 30.

<*(((><

 

[twin1954]

The passage doesn't say what He foreknew no matter how you try to twist it make it seem that what He foreknow is who He foreknew. It says He foreknew people not what they would do. Predestiantion to be conformed to Christ isn't based on foresight.

 

[DeaconDean]

Briefly, though, this is the only clear passage that states how God predestined anyone. Note that it states that He predestines those whom He foreknew [would believe in Jesus as Savior] to be conformed to the image of Jesus. To view predestination in this fashion does not violate God's sovereignty, as He not only knows who will believe, but He also is the sole power involved in salvation. Only God can call, only God can convict, only God can accept. Man has a minor part in salvation, and that is simple belief. Yet God still must acknowledge that belief/faith as genuine and true. Only He knows if it is, only He can reward that belief with eternal life. Eternal life cannot be lost by the receiver, who had nothing to do with it beyond simple faith to begin with.

A major problem with the view that God foreknew who would accept and believe therefore were predestinated is that God respects those who do this and "elects" them while at the same time has no respect for those who don't.

God looking foreward in time and seeing who would or would not accept and believe makes Him a respecter of persons which by the way, makes the scriptures contridictory, it also means Abraham now has something to brag about. And in fact, so would anybody who believes.

"Look! God looked foreward in time and saw I would believe therefore I did something which merited His favor."

What a bunch of crap.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Hupomone10]

Read the Bible! Pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit! Proceed from there. You will all be a lot better off following Christ, than looking back through 400 murky years of history to study two dead theologians.

,
AMEN, AMEN, and AMEN.

 

[Nemnar]

I think that the "answer" lies somehow in the verse itself, and the way its structured.

Ephesians 1:5

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Its like, he predestined that we would be Gods children through Christ. Or children of Christ were predestined to also be children of God. Or the New King James Version:

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.
It says by Jesus Christ. So children of Christ are predestined to be children of God. If that is so, we still have to choose Christ. Jesus Christ is a qualifier in the sentence in some way, and i think that's the key to that verse. This is my interpretation, so take it as you will.

 

[WinBySurrender]

A major problem with the view that God foreknew who would accept and believe therefore were predestinated is that God respects those who do this and "elects" them while at the same time has no respect for those who don't.

God looking foreward in time and seeing who would or would not accept and believe makes Him a respecter of persons which by the way, makes the scriptures contridictory, it also means Abraham now has something to brag about. And in fact, so would anybody who believes.

"Look! God looked foreward in time and saw I would believe therefore I did something which merited His favor."

What a bunch of crap.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Actually, God would be a respecter of persons if He has chosen some for salvation and others for destruction. That is the "bunch of crap" in the discussion. Beyond that, I'm not going to continue this trite and overdone discussion. I'm already sorry I bothered posting on this thread as it is.