Arminianism versus Calvinism Again

[GeneSnider]

I grew up in the Presbyterian church, but now I belong to the Assembly of God church. The debate between Armenians and Calvinists has always intrigued me. In my humble opinion, the debate is not centered on theology, but only the world view of the debater. The cornerstone of Calvinism is that libertarian free will is impossible for man. The cornerstone of Armenians that libertarian free will is a gift of God to man.

One quick aside. The saddest period of Einstein's life were his last 30 years when he tried to disprove his own theory. He said, "God does not play dice." Not only do we have libertarian free will, but the universe has a form of it as well. He wrote the laws of quantum mechanics to give our universe the physical equivalent of libertarian free will. Consider a block of uranium sitting on a lab bench. Quantum mechanics tells us that we know how many nuclei will decay per hour, but not which ones. This is in effect, the physical equivalent of libertarian free will.

Calvinists believe that in our time line, God is only an observer, he made every choice during His creation process. Armenians on the other hand, tend to believe that He is constantly editing His plan to change events in his creation at our request. One way or the other, our prayers are not a waste of time, they are cast in concrete. This debate is not about an interpretation of God's perfect will and scripture, it is a debate about human world view.

In conclusion, the next time you debate a Calvinist, include world view as well as interpretation of biblical doctrine and God's perfect will.

Regards,
Gene

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

I grew up in the Presbyterian church, but now I belong to the Assembly of God church. The debate between Armenians and Calvinists has always intrigued me. In my humble opinion, the debate is not centered on theology, but only the world view of the debater. The cornerstone of Calvinism is that libertarian free will is impossible for man. The cornerstone of Armenians that libertarian free will is a gift of God to man.

One quick aside. The saddest period of Einstein's life were his last 30 years when he tried to disprove his own theory. He said, "God does not play dice." Not only do we have libertarian free will, but the universe has a form of it as well. He wrote the laws of quantum mechanics to give our universe the physical equivalent of libertarian free will. Consider a block of uranium sitting on a lab bench. Quantum mechanics tells us that we know how many nuclei will decay per hour, but not which ones. This is in effect, the physical equivalent of libertarian free will.

Calvinists believe that in our time line, God is only an observer, he made every choice during His creation process. Armenians on the other hand, tend to believe that He is constantly editing His plan to change events in his creation at our request. One way or the other, our prayers are not a waste of time, they are cast in concrete. This debate is not about an interpretation of God's perfect will and scripture, it is a debate about human world view.

In conclusion, the next time you debate a Calvinist, include world view as well as interpretation of biblical doctrine and God's perfect will.

Regards,
Gene

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle (calvinism and armenianism). God is in control of everything. That does not mean we are robots not capable of our own choices, thus God holds us responsible. How is God sovereign over our choices I have no idea.

As long as we preach Christ crucified and risen, and that salvation is by grace alone, by faith alone and Christ alone...it's all that matters

 

[HarleyER]

I grew up in the Presbyterian church, but now I belong to the Assembly of God church. The debate between Armenians and Calvinists has always intrigued me. In my humble opinion, the debate is not centered on theology, but only the world view of the debater. The cornerstone of Calvinism is that libertarian free will is impossible for man. The cornerstone of Armenians that libertarian free will is a gift of God to man.

One quick aside. The saddest period of Einstein's life were his last 30 years when he tried to disprove his own theory. He said, "God does not play dice." Not only do we have libertarian free will, but the universe has a form of it as well. He wrote the laws of quantum mechanics to give our universe the physical equivalent of libertarian free will. Consider a block of uranium sitting on a lab bench. Quantum mechanics tells us that we know how many nuclei will decay per hour, but not which ones. This is in effect, the physical equivalent of libertarian free will.

Calvinists believe that in our time line, God is only an observer, he made every choice during His creation process. Armenians on the other hand, tend to believe that He is constantly editing His plan to change events in his creation at our request. One way or the other, our prayers are not a waste of time, they are cast in concrete. This debate is not about an interpretation of God's perfect will and scripture, it is a debate about human world view.

In conclusion, the next time you debate a Calvinist, include world view as well as interpretation of biblical doctrine and God's perfect will.

Regards,
Gene

Why would you want to include your "world view" (philosophy) as part of your interpretation of bibilical doctrine?

 

[zippy2006]

He said, "God does not play dice." Not only do we have libertarian free will, but the universe has a form of it as well. He wrote the laws of quantum mechanics to give our universe the physical equivalent of libertarian free will.

Not a great take. Einstein did not discover QM, and the discovery of QM threw Einstein's theories into a tizzy because the two contradict each other, and we have not yet found a way to reconcile them. Einstein's, "God does not play dice" leans in the direction of necessitarianism (as does that whole lineage of Newtonian science), and modern opposition to this sort of thinking tends to focus on QM in opposition to Einstein (see for example C. S. Peirce's "Tychism").

 

[com7fy8]

Calvinists believe that in our time line, God is only an observer, he made every choice during His creation process.

I do not know if Calvinists believe that God is now just an observer.

His main choice was to have many children who have been conformed to the image of Jesus > Romans 8:29.

I do not know how many free will people are choosing this, or how many Calvinists.

But now God has things working according to His choice to have many children who are like Jesus and who love like Jesus. We can not get our own selves to do this, but we need how God in us changes our character so we choose and pursue this.

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

 

[Armchair Apologist]

I got to meet a good number of Armenians back in the 90s when I was living out in Glendale, CA. Many came to the United States as refugees from their country of Armenia and there were multiple families crowded up in the small apartments where my wife and I were living at the time. Some were good Christians and I am sure that some even had good theology unlike the other group that people mistake Armenians with!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I got to meet a good number of Armenians back in the 90s when I was living out in Glendale, CA. Many came to the United States as refugees from their country of Armenia and there were multiple families crowded up in the small apartments where my wife and I were living at the time. Some were good Christians and I am sure that some even had good theology unlike the other group that people mistake Armenians with!

Yeah sometimes I think Calvinism is somehow associated with Calvin Klein .. but I'm just kidding myself.

 

[Mercy Shown]

I grew up in the Presbyterian church, but now I belong to the Assembly of God church. The debate between Armenians and Calvinists has always intrigued me. In my humble opinion, the debate is not centered on theology, but only the world view of the debater. The cornerstone of Calvinism is that libertarian free will is impossible for man. The cornerstone of Armenians that libertarian free will is a gift of God to man.

One quick aside. The saddest period of Einstein's life were his last 30 years when he tried to disprove his own theory. He said, "God does not play dice." Not only do we have libertarian free will, but the universe has a form of it as well. He wrote the laws of quantum mechanics to give our universe the physical equivalent of libertarian free will. Consider a block of uranium sitting on a lab bench. Quantum mechanics tells us that we know how many nuclei will decay per hour, but not which ones. This is in effect, the physical equivalent of libertarian free will.

Calvinists believe that in our time line, God is only an observer, he made every choice during His creation process. Armenians on the other hand, tend to believe that He is constantly editing His plan to change events in his creation at our request. One way or the other, our prayers are not a waste of time, they are cast in concrete. This debate is not about an interpretation of God's perfect will and scripture, it is a debate about human world view.

In conclusion, the next time you debate a Calvinist, include world view as well as interpretation of biblical doctrine and God's perfect will.

Regards,
Gene

Yes, Calvanist's worldview is definitely deterministic. But we could go a step further and ask what makes a person attracted to determinism. Do they find comfort in it? It does let one off the hook and removes them from any responsibility or need for any action.

The most interesting feature of Calvinism is that so many of its adherents are deterministic only on paper but live and talk like indeterminists.

 

[David Lamb]

Yes, Calvanist's worldview is definitely deterministic. But we could go a step further and ask what makes a person attracted to determinism. Do they find comfort in it? It does let one off the hook and removes them from any responsibility or need for any action.

The most interesting feature of Calvinism is that so many of its adherents are deterministic only on paper but live and talk like indeterminists.

Calvinism/the Doctrines of Grace, Reformed theology does not state or believe that it "lets off the hook and removes them from any responsibility or need for any action." They believe in the responsibility to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and having done so, to do what Paul writes about in Ephesians 2, those good works which God has prepared for us to do. They believe in their responsibility to spread the gospel. William Carey, sometimes known as the father of modern missions, believed the Doctrines of Grace. The idea that Reformed doctrine teaches that sinners are just to sit back and say, "Well, if God wants to save me He will, and if not, there's nothing I can do about it!" is a caricature. Some people might be surprised to know that John Calvin himself wrote: "Nobody is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open unto all: neither is there any other thing which keepeth us back from entering in, save only our own unbelief.”

 

[armchairscholar]

I grew up in the Presbyterian church, but now I belong to the Assembly of God church. The debate between Armenians and Calvinists has always intrigued me. In my humble opinion, the debate is not centered on theology, but only the world view of the debater. The cornerstone of Calvinism is that libertarian free will is impossible for man. The cornerstone of Armenians that libertarian free will is a gift of God to man.

One quick aside. The saddest period of Einstein's life were his last 30 years when he tried to disprove his own theory. He said, "God does not play dice." Not only do we have libertarian free will, but the universe has a form of it as well. He wrote the laws of quantum mechanics to give our universe the physical equivalent of libertarian free will. Consider a block of uranium sitting on a lab bench. Quantum mechanics tells us that we know how many nuclei will decay per hour, but not which ones. This is in effect, the physical equivalent of libertarian free will.

Calvinists believe that in our time line, God is only an observer, he made every choice during His creation process. Armenians on the other hand, tend to believe that He is constantly editing His plan to change events in his creation at our request. One way or the other, our prayers are not a waste of time, they are cast in concrete. This debate is not about an interpretation of God's perfect will and scripture, it is a debate about human world view.

In conclusion, the next time you debate a Calvinist, include world view as well as interpretation of biblical doctrine and God's perfect will.

Regards,
Gene

I must say that I am intrigued by your assertion that the crux of this debate lies not in theology, but in the world view of the debater.

Our understanding of God's nature and humanity's relationship with Him is deeply influenced by our individual perspectives and experiences. It is as if we are gazing at a magnificent tapestry, and each of us sees a unique pattern and design. The Calvinist sees a majestic narrative of divine sovereignty, while the Arminian beholds a beautiful dance of human freedom and divine collaboration.

As I reflect on your words, I am reminded of the wisdom of Saint Augustine, who said, "The heart is restless until it finds its rest in Thee, O Lord." Our hearts, our minds, and our world views are all on a journey of discovery, seeking to understand the mysteries of God's plan and our place within it.

Your analogy of Einstein's theory of quantum mechanics is fascinating. The unpredictability of nuclear decay can be seen as a reflection of the human experience, where freedom and uncertainty coexist with the underlying order of the universe.

I would say that the debate between Calvinism and Arminianism reveals the complex interplay between our cognitive biases, emotional needs, and spiritual aspirations. Our world views are shaped by a multitude of factors, including our upbringing, experiences, and relationships.

And yet, as people of faith, we are called to transcend our individual perspectives and to seek a deeper understanding of God's perfect will. As you so eloquently put it, our prayers are not a waste of time; they are an integral part of the divine plan, shaping events and circumstances in ways that we may not fully comprehend.

In the end, I believe that the debate between Calvinism and Arminianism is not a zero-sum game, where one side must win and the other must lose. Rather, it is an invitation to engage in a rich and nuanced conversation, where we can learn from each other, challenge our assumptions, and deepen our understanding of the divine mystery.

 

[Mercy Shown]

Calvinism/the Doctrines of Grace, Reformed theology does not state or believe that it "lets off the hook and removes them from any responsibility or need for any action."

Stop right here. Are you saying that they are on the hook for some kind of action? What if they do not do it? Can they lose their salvation for refusing to take action? If you say that they get reprogrammed to want to take action without their consent, well, aren't they actually off the hook because God will make them do what He wants them to do?

They believe in the responsibility to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,

Does that responsibility then require a free-will choice to remain saved by the action of taking that responsibility?

and having done so, to do what Paul writes about in Ephesians 2, those good works which God has prepared for us to do. They believe in their responsibility to spread the gospel.

Again responsibility. That implies choice. Are all Calvinists responsible? Would God's plans fail if they did not do their duty? Would some people who could have been saved be lost because Calvinists failed in their responsibility, or does everything work out as God plans because it really is automatic?

William Carey, sometimes known as the father of modern missions, believed the Doctrines of Grace. The idea that Reformed doctrine teaches that sinners are just to sit back and say, "Well, if God wants to save me He will, and if not, there's nothing I can do about it!" is a caricature. Some people might be surprised to know that John Calvin himself wrote: "Nobody is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open unto all: neither is there any other thing which keepeth us back from entering in, save only our own unbelief.”

But John also taught that only the elect will receive the power to believe so it is a distinction without a difference.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

Stop right here. Are you saying that they are on the hook for some kind of action? What if they do not do it? Can they lose their salvation for refusing to take action? If you say that they get reprogrammed to want to take action without their consent, well, aren't they actually off the hook because God will make them do what He wants them to do?

Does that responsibility then require a free-will choice to remain saved by the action of taking that responsibility?

Again responsibility. That implies choice. Are all Calvinists responsible? Would God's plans fail if they did not do their duty? Would some people who could have been saved be lost because Calvinists failed in their responsibility, or does everything work out as God plans because it really is automatic?

But John also taught that only the elect will receive the power to believe so it is a distinction without a difference.

May I challenge you to examine your views in light of the veracity and perspicuity of the scriptures? It seems to me that you are making your arguments against Calvinism because you believe in your "heart of hearts" that Calvinism cannot possibly be true! No attacks here as this is exactly where I was many years ago! It should not be an "emotional" argument but one in which you are firmly rooted and grounded upon the scriptures!

I try not to argue for or against Calvinism although I admit that this is where I have landed and believe me when I say that I arrived at this position kicking and screaming! If you are able to make your case through the authority and sufficiency of scripture, you will have my respect and I will have to give serious consideration to your arguments!

One thing I will stress though is that the scriptures clearly declare God's sovereignty as well as man's responsibility and a balanced, biblical soteriological position will acknowledge both. God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30) but Jesus also states clearly that no one comes to him unless the father draws him (Jn 6:44). God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe (1 Cor 1:21) and we are commanded to preach the word (1 Cor 9:16).

 

[Mercy Shown]

May I challenge you to examine your views in light of the veracity and perspicuity of the scriptures? It seems to me that you are making your arguments against Calvinism because you believe in your "heart of hearts" that Calvinism cannot possibly be true! No attacks here as this is exactly where I was many years ago! It should not be an "emotional" argument but one in which you are firmly rooted and grounded upon the scriptures!

I try not to argue for or against Calvinism although I admit that this is where I have landed and believe me when I say that I arrived at this position kicking and screaming! If you are able to make your case through the authority and sufficiency of scripture, you will have my respect and I will have to give serious consideration to your arguments!

One thing I will stress though is that the scriptures clearly declare God's sovereignty as well as man's responsibility and a balanced, biblical soteriological position will acknowledge both. God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30) but Jesus also states clearly that no one comes to him unless the father draws him (Jn 6:44). God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe (1 Cor 1:21) and we are commanded to preach the word (1 Cor 9:16).

I have thoroughly done that. Have done that with verses of scripture. I have written quite extensively on the subject, so perhaps you have missed it.

Pick a point in which you think I am wrong and post it and I will discuss it with you.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

I have thoroughly done that. Have done that with verses of scripture. I have written quite extensively on the subject, so perhaps you have missed it.

I'm sorry, I do not see that you have demonstrated this in your response to David Lamb. It seems that Calvinism is a subject that upsets you. Why is this? I will not require your response to this but this is something you need to ask yourself and give serious thought to.

Pick a point in which you think I am wrong and post it and I will discuss it with you.

I am looking over your response and am having difficulty understanding your arguments so allow me ask the following:

1. Is God sovereign? Does God have a perfect free will? Is he sovereign over your free will?
2. Is your free will able to preempt and thwart God's sovereignty? Do you have a perfect free will? In what way is your free will restricted or limited?
3. Does God truly "decree all things that come to pass" or has he merely written down a "Wish List" hoping that we cooperate with him in order to accomplish what he wills?

 

[David Lamb]

Stop right here. Are you saying that they are on the hook for some kind of action? What if they do not do it? Can they lose their salvation for refusing to take action? If you say that they get reprogrammed to want to take action without their consent, well, aren't they actually off the hook because God will make them do what He wants them to do?

Does that responsibility then require a free-will choice to remain saved by the action of taking that responsibility?

Again responsibility. That implies choice. Are all Calvinists responsible? Would God's plans fail if they did not do their duty? Would some people who could have been saved be lost because Calvinists failed in their responsibility, or does everything work out as God plans because it really is automatic?

But John also taught that only the elect will receive the power to believe so it is a distinction without a difference.

(Sorry I misread your post. I read "off the hook" again. I have edited this post to correct my misreading.) Yes, I suppose am saying "that they are on the hook for some kind of action." That is where God's chastisement comes in:

“7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.” (Heb 12:7-8 NKJV)

And no, I don't believe that the bible teaches that someone who believes on The Lord Jesus Christ loses their salvation. Jesus said:

“"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.” (Joh 6:37 NKJV)

Yes, Calvinists believe in responsibility. Sinners are responsible for their sins. Saved sinners are responsible for loving God, praising Him, and spreading His word.

 

[Mercy Shown]

(Sorry I misread your post. I read "off the hook" again. I have edited this post to correct my misreading.) Yes, I suppose am saying "that they are on the hook for some kind of action." That is where God's chastisement comes in:

“7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.” (Heb 12:7-8 NKJV)

And no, I don't believe that the bible teaches that someone who believes on The Lord Jesus Christ loses their salvation. Jesus said:

Right, but if they stop believing, then they are unbelievers who are no longer under Grace. If this were impossible, then Paul would not have had to pen Galatians

“"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.” (Joh 6:37 NKJV)

This text tells us that Jesus will not cast them out, but He does ask some of them this question: "Will you leave also?" He does not keep people chained to His side. And even though He had 12 come to him, one of them left. "Have I not chosen you? Yet one of you is a devil."

Yes, Calvinists believe in responsibility. Sinners are responsible for their sins. Saved sinners are responsible for loving God, praising Him, and spreading His word.

This is a free-will choice. If a Calvinist shirks his responsibility, does he or she suffer any ill effects?

 

[David Lamb]

Right, but if they stop believing, then they are unbelievers who are no longer under Grace. If this were impossible, then Paul would not have had to pen Galatians

This text tells us that Jesus will not cast them out, but He does ask some of them this question: "Will you leave also?" He does not keep people chained to His side. And even though He had 12 come to him, one of them left. "Have I not chosen you? Yet one of you is a devil."

This is a free-will choice. If a Calvinist shirks his responsibility, does he or she suffer any ill effects?

I would say that if they don't believe, then they didn't really believe in the first place. They were like the seed in the parable that fell by the wayside, among thorns, etc. When God does a work in a person's heart, He completes it, as we read in Philippians:

“being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete [it] until the day of Jesus Christ;” (Php 1:6 NKJV)

As for Galatians, yes there may have been those in the Galatian church who had sneaked in, and were not really believers, or Paul may have been addressing (when he wrote things like "O foolish Galatians!") believers who were being led astray by false teachers.

Yes, Jesus did ask, "Will you leave also?", but we know that apart from Judas Iscariot, none of them did. In His high priestly prayer in John 17, He said:

“"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.” (Joh 17:12 NKJV)

If a Christian shirks God given responsibilities, then he will be subject to God's chastisement.

 

[Mercy Shown]

I would say that if they don't believe, then they didn't really believe in the first place.

Of course we can’t know that. It is just a conjecture on our part. I think Hebrews 6:4 is a very strong argument against this. Still, from God’s all seeing point of view this would be the case but not from our limited point of view.

This still does not impact whether God grants all men an informed choice.

They were like the seed in the parable that fell by the wayside, among thorns, etc. When God does a work in a person's heart, He completes it, as we read in Philippians:

“being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete [it] until the day of Jesus Christ;” (Php 1:6 NKJV)

This is true if we abide in him. But apart from him you can do nothing. We have the free choice to leave Him in which case we will wither and return to a state where we can no longer choose Him.

As for Galatians, yes there may have been those in the Galatian church who had sneaked in, and were not really believers, or Paul may have been addressing (when he wrote things like "O foolish Galatians!") believers who were being led astray by false teachers.

How can one be led astray in less, like Eve they decide to trust someone or something more than God? They were being led astray by their own bad choice to follow a different path.

Yes, Jesus did ask, "Will you leave also?", but we know that apart from Judas Iscariot, none of them did. In His high priestly prayer in John 17, He said:

“"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.” (Joh 17:12 NKJV)

He was lost by His choice.

If a Christian shirks God given responsibilities, then he will be subject to God's chastisement.

And if he or she ignores God’s chastisement then they have ignored so great a salvation.