Ark Design: Window Covering

[Floodnut]

The window in the ark, actually there are two kinds mentioned in Genesis, but the one God COMMANDED Noah to make, "A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; . . . " (Ge 6:16).
It has been suggested by those who claim to be eye-witnesses of remains (not debating that here), and it has been suggested by naval architects and Woodmorappe, that this window was for VENTILATION. The Hebrew Word is Tsohar and means a light, but it is most literally NOON, i.e. directly overhead, in the center. The word connotes LIGHT as well. Overhead, in the center LIGHT.

What sorts of materials might have been used for a watertight seal, but still admitting light? Imagine we are meeting with Noah, 20 years before the completion of the Project, and Noah is taking suggestions from experts in various fields: manufacturing, plant biologists, animal biologists, mineralists. What materials or combination of materials might be used to effectively admit light while remaing watertight?

Make use of the many possible sources which might now be extinct.

 

[laptoppop]

The window wouldn't necessarily need to be sealed - it could be wide open. It just needs to be high enough above the waterline to avoid spillage and shaded by an awning to avoid rain coming in.

 

[Floodnut]

The window wouldn't necessarily need to be sealed - it could be wide open. It just needs to be high enough above the waterline to avoid spillage and shaded by an awning to avoid rain coming in.

IF it is shaded, how does it serve its primary function, admitting overhead LIGHT? Personally I think it can serve a dual function, admitting air and light, but not if it is not transparent to a degree, or at least translucent.

 

[laptoppop]

A window in the high upper side, even if shielded by an awning would still let in a bunch of light. It wouldn't be directly overhead, but an awning covered window could be directly overhead -- think of it like a hole with a picnic table umbrella on top of it.

There's some folks that wonder if the ark design actually used a moon pool -- here's a fascinating little article about possible ventilation on the ark: http://www.worldwideflood.com/ark/ventilation/ventilation.htm

 

[Floodnut]

I admire all of the great ideas for ventilation, Tim Lovett and others have workd that out quite handily. But as was pointed out in the opening post, based on VOCABULARY, it seems that the primary purpose of the TSOHAR (Noon, Overhead and Center Light-admitting opening), . . .
PLEASE HUMOR ME and come up with innovative suggestions for a roof material from the the pre-flood world that MIGHT have been employed by the native genius of Noah, the divinely-gifted builder.

 

[laptoppop]

I don't believe that there were any clear materials back then. Maybe some sort of glass -- but I hadn't heard of it being turned into windows.

on the other hand, just cover the window with an umbrella structure, and it can be directly overhead and will provide both light and ventilation.

 

[FallingWaters]

I admire all of the great ideas for ventilation, Tim Lovett and others have workd that out quite handily. But as was pointed out in the opening post, based on VOCABULARY, it seems that the primary purpose of the TSOHAR (Noon, Overhead and Center Light-admitting opening), . . .
PLEASE HUMOR ME and come up with innovative suggestions for a roof material from the the pre-flood world that MIGHT have been employed by the native genius of Noah, the divinely-gifted builder.

Early man must have discovered that when sand as heated with plant ashes (containing alkalis) it turned into a liquid which cooled to give clear, sometimes colored, objects. The earliest glass object found dates from around 4500 B.C., in the Middle East.
http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/3-30-2005-67802.asp

Glasses are known to be manufactured as early as 12,000 B.C.[1] The oldest pieces of glaze and glass were discovered in Egypt, but it is unclear whether they originated in the Middle East or in Asia.
[1] G.W. Morey, The Properties of Glass, 2nd ed., Reinhold, New York, (1954)
http://www.polymicro.com/catalog/1_1.htm

Glass as a substance has been known to man for over 4,000 years with Syria in all probability being the country of origin somewhere around 2500 BC.
1400 BC - Glass factory known to exist in Egypt at Tel-el-Amara.
200 AD - Some examples of clear glass made by the crown process exist from this period sheet sizes approx. 102 x 51mm. this is probably the first example of clear window glass.
http://www.monmin.com.my/monmin_chronology.asp


Or maybe Noah used thin sheets of clear Mica- if there was any before the Flood.

 

[Floodnut]

There you go. Thanks for humoring me. I am thinking possible plant materials also, resins in sheets, or skins, or dried membranes of some sort of animals, maybe tanned by some appropriate process.

 

[keyarch]

There you go. Thanks for humoring me. I am thinking possible plant materials also, resins in sheets, or skins, or dried membranes of some sort of animals, maybe tanned by some appropriate process.

I did some searching on the text in the different languages and I didn't even find where a "window" was identified. It's in the KJV, but I don't see it elsewhere. I'm sure there were openings for light and ventilation, but I don't see the need for a "seal". I'm sure the Ark was protected from turning over or experiencing huge waves, so the openingings could have been open all the time. Why would they have needed a "window" in the conventional sense?

 

[FallingWaters]

He doesn't think there would have been enough light.

...hmmm...


Here's a thought. What if God wanted it to be relatively dark so that the animals would go into a sort of semi-hibernation?

 

[FallingWaters]

Gen 6:16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; [with] lower, second, and third [stories] shalt thou make it.
Strong's H6672
צהר
tsôhar
tso'-har
From H6671; a light (that is, window); dual double light, that is, noon: - midday, noon (-day, -tide), window.

Apparently, none of the Bible scholars I trust, know for sure what that was in verse 16.
However Albert Barnes point out this:
"16. צהר tsohar “shining, light;” not the same as the חלון chalôn Gen_8:6, or the aperture through which Noah let out the raven."

verse 6 uses:
Strong's H2474
חלּון
challôn
khal-lone'
A window (as perforated): - window.

Gen 8:6 And it came to pass at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made:
Noah opened the window which means it was closeable, but this is not the same window as in the previous reference.

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

Here is some interesting reading.

Gen 6:16 -
A window — probably a skylight, formed of some transparent substance unknown.
in a cubit shalt thou finish it above — a direction to raise the roof in the middle, seemingly to form a gentle slope for letting the water run off.

6:15,16 While the ark was not designed for beauty or speed, these dimensions provided extraordinary stability in the tumultuous floodwaters. A cubit was about 18 inches long, making the ark 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high. A gigantic box of that size would be very stable in the water, impossible to capsize. The volume of space in the ark was 1.4 million cubic feet, equal to the capacity of 522 standard railroad box cars, which could carry 125,000 sheep. It had 3 stories, each 15 feet high; each deck was equipped with various rooms (lit. “nests”). “Pitch” was a resin substance to seal the seams and cracks in the wood. The “window” may have actually been a low wall around the flat roof to catch water for all on the ark.

 

[Floodnut]

I did some searching on the text in the different languages and I didn't even find where a "window" was identified. It's in the KJV, but I don't see it elsewhere. I'm sure there were openings for light and ventilation, but I don't see the need for a "seal". I'm sure the Ark was protected from turning over or experiencing huge waves, so the openingings could have been open all the time. Why would they have needed a "window" in the conventional sense?

There are two windows mentioned in the text. One is the Tsohar, or overhead opening for admitting LIGHT, since it is the word for noon, and carries a connotation of "light." I also allow that it may have also been part of the ventilation system, although that is not indicated in its meaning or in the text. The nature of the cargo of the ark seems to suggest the need for some sort of ventilation.
The other window is the OPENING which Noah made, and it was closeable. It is also commonly used of a window in the side of a structure, through which one can peer or look out. It may have been a single small window, or a type of window, possibly in the ends of the ark, or around a perimeter under a sort of eaves.
The upper opening is the issue however. We need to decide how to depict this upper opening, the Tsohar, in a movie. If it is to run the length of the center of the ark then the opening it needs to be covered, or provided with some sort of scuppers to keep water out, both rain and waves. So, I am thinking it can be OPEN on the sides of some sort of center roof opening, but it needs to be covered on top, to prevent rain from coming in. But while it needs to be covered, it still needs to fulfill its purposed of admitting light, so that covering needs to be transparent or at least translucent.
Glass is plausible, especially since in the Pre-Flood world they were smelting metals, and this would lead to a high probability of a discovery of glass in those circumstances of high heat.
Though they may have had access to glass, it is not a very practical roof material, unless they had some way of tempering it to resist cracking in the event of any impacts of hard objects, such as hail.
I want to show them as highly inventive and innovative, full of the same type of "native genius" that enabled Australian aboriginies to develope the boomerang, and that enabled the Innuit to develope the Kayak in harsh arctic conditions.

 

[keyarch]

Strong's H6672
צהר
tsôhar
tso'-har
From H6671; a light (that is, window); dual double light, that is, noon: - midday, noon (-day, -tide), window.

Strong's H2474
חלּון
challôn
khal-lone'
A window (as perforated): - window.

This is the way I see it based on my study using 'BibleWorks' software to evaluate the Hebrew and Greek for the passages.

• The word in Hebrew used in Gen. 6:16 (Hol7101 ) means “covering, roof” It’s the only place in the Old Testament that it’s used.
• The word in Hebrew used in Gen. 8:6 (Hol2550) means“hole in the wall for air and light”.

So to put the meanings above into the passages, we end up with:

ESV Genesis 6:16 “Make a roof for the ark, and finish it to a cubit above, and set the door of the ark in its side. Make it with lower, second, and third decks.”

(You have the Ark, then a raised roof above it. The door in the “side” could be somewhere above the water line, because a cubit high between the upper deck and the roof wouldn’t be high enough for all the animals to get thru.

ESV Genesis 8:6 “At the end of forty days Noah opened the [hole in the wall] of the ark that he had made.”

(Within the brackets are my replacements based on the definition).

To suggest that there was any kind of “glass” or opening in the roof etc. is going beyond what the text is telling us. We can’t even say what kind of ventilation holes there were, only that there was something the raven passed thru. We are basically given the overall shape of the Ark and that it had at least one opening that was sealed and reopened it at the end. Anything else is conjecture.

 

[FallingWaters]

This is the way I see it based on my study using 'BibleWorks' software to evaluate the Hebrew and Greek for the passages.

• The word in Hebrew used in Gen. 6:16 (Hol7101 ) means “covering, roof” It’s the only place in the Old Testament that it’s used.
• The word in Hebrew used in Gen. 8:6 (Hol2550) means“hole in the wall for air and light”.

So to put the meanings above into the passages, we end up with:

ESV Genesis 6:16 “Make a roof for the ark, and finish it to a cubit above, and set the door of the ark in its side. Make it with lower, second, and third decks.”

(You have the Ark, then a raised roof above it. The door in the “side” could be somewhere above the water line, because a cubit high between the upper deck and the roof wouldn’t be high enough for all the animals to get thru.

ESV Genesis 8:6 “At the end of forty days Noah opened the [hole in the wall] of the ark that he had made.”

(Within the brackets are my replacements based on the definition).

To suggest that there was any kind of “glass” or opening in the roof etc. is going beyond what the text is telling us. We can’t even say what kind of ventilation holes there were, only that there was something the raven passed thru. We are basically given the overall shape of the Ark and that it had at least one opening that was sealed and reopened it at the end. Anything else is conjecture.

This is a sensible suggestion.

That reminds me. About half the translations have translated the word in chap 6 to "roof".

Maybe an ark was an open vessel and so a roof to keep out the rain would have been a necessary addition?

 

[Floodnut]

This is the way I see it based on my study using 'BibleWorks' software to evaluate the Hebrew and Greek for the passages.

• The word in Hebrew used in Gen. 6:16 (Hol7101 ) means “covering, roof” It’s the only place in the Old Testament that it’s used.
• The word in Hebrew used in Gen. 8:6 (Hol2550) means“hole in the wall for air and light”.

So to put the meanings above into the passages, we end up with:

ESV Genesis 6:16 “Make a roof for the ark, and finish it to a cubit above, and set the door of the ark in its side. Make it with lower, second, and third decks.”

(You have the Ark, then a raised roof above it. The door in the “side” could be somewhere above the water line, because a cubit high between the upper deck and the roof wouldn’t be high enough for all the animals to get thru.

ESV Genesis 8:6 “At the end of forty days Noah opened the [hole in the wall] of the ark that he had made.”

(Within the brackets are my replacements based on the definition).

To suggest that there was any kind of “glass” or opening in the roof etc. is going beyond what the text is telling us. We can’t even say what kind of ventilation holes there were, only that there was something the raven passed thru. We are basically given the overall shape of the Ark and that it had at least one opening that was sealed and reopened it at the end. Anything else is conjecture.

OK, since it would all be "going beyond the text," I guess I need to just give up on the idea of depicting it in a movie. Scratch that one, and I guess the Jon Voight fiasco farce will stand as the definitive work on the Flood.
Thanks for everyone's help.

 

[keyarch]

OK, since it would all be "going beyond the text," I guess I need to just give up on the idea of depicting it in a movie. Scratch that one, and I guess the Jon Voight fiasco farce will stand as the definitive work on the Flood.
Thanks for everyone's help.

I don't think there's anything wrong with depicting the Ark how you think it may have been. In fact, I think it would be good to see something that shows how all the "kinds" of animals, including young dinosaurs fit into it. It would be fun to see how the logistics were handled for food, water, waste, exercise, interaction of animals etc. Did some kind of hibernate? Things like that. I would guess that not all of Noah's family liked the chores or the smell. It's like "I think I would have rather drowned!"
Anyway, don't be discouraged. I was just responding to the technical biblical stuff and didn't mean to say anything negative to the idea.
Merry Christmas!

BTW, I never saw the J.V. movie from 1999. I just read a pretty negative review on it though.

 

[FallingWaters]

(I saw it. I thought it was miserable, blasphemous trash but I'm usually strongly opinionated about stuff like that.)

 

[Floodnut]

Woodmorappe wrote a review of it. That horrible movie is a key inspiration for this one.

Keyarch, keep giving input. I guess in the areas where the Bible is SILENT, and non-specific, I am looking for what might be allowed in depictions, rather than what it must be like. There is so much about which we must remain uncertain.

 

[keyarch]

Woodmorappe wrote a review of it. That horrible movie is a key inspiration for this one.

Keyarch, keep giving input. I guess in the areas where the Bible is SILENT, and non-specific, I am looking for what might be allowed in depictions, rather than what it must be like. There is so much about which we must remain uncertain.

Ok, here are some allowed elements for your depictions of the ark.

• We know that the ark was 300 cubits (450 ft.) long; 50 cubits (75 ft.) wide; and 45 cubits (45 ft.) high. We can assume that the corners were curved and that these were the overall dimensions.
• From the box dimensions of the ark, there was a roof that only extended up 1 cubit (1.5 ft.). I would again have to assume that this was the upper limit of the roof at it’s ridge, which if the eave started at the edge of the “box” it would have a ½ inch in 12 inch slope. This is a pretty minimal slope to get the water off without causing ponding on the roof that would put extra forces on it. I would also assume that this roof had hips at the ends so that the entire ark was roofed over without any flat decks to collect water and cause a waterproofing problem. That brings up a question as to whether they needed to add to their water supplies during the time on the ark. If so, some method of collecting it could be added to the picture.
• Regarding the opening in the side: There could have been one at each level. This would have allowed the animals to get into their respective levels via an exterior ramp, without the need for major ramps inside that would take up space. Those doors could have been on sliding rails and been sealed up after sliding them in place. The ramps would be stored inside for later use to disembark.
• Light and ventilation: We are free to imagine this feature. My thought is that there were a series of openings (at least on the upper level) that could be open or shut depending on the needs. They wouldn’t have needed to be water tight from the sense of any submersion because God would have protected the ark from that occurrence. If you want to get some mechanics involved, there could have been shutters that were operated with rails and a crank (sort of like the old jail cell doors). There could have been some kind of skylight in the roof if you wanted.
• Inside logistics: For transport of food, water and the family – there was most likely platforms moved by cranks and pulleys servicing all the levels. There would have been some way to remove or recycle excrement.

I don’t think we need to worry about anything to power or navigate the ark. It just needed to stay afloat.