Arguments for and against masturbation

[lnname]

I thought the discussion of masturbation in phantasmans thread (masturbation) was great, but I thought that if it had some neater ground work laid (like you would in the opening comments of a debate) it might be even better. I realize the following might look TLDR, but please read and contribute; I am deeply interested in hearing what you say.

What are the arguments for and against masturbation? Why do you choose to or choose not to?

Key arguments for:

1) Complete sexual inactivity promotes genital infections and cancers, and is therefore unlikely to be the will of God

2) Animals (such as goats, otters and chimps) touch if they are kept without those of the opposite sex. Animals are unaffected by the fall and are not sinful.

3) Masturbation is not condemned in most English translations of the bible.

Key arguments against:

1) Historically, when the church, or people of the church have mentioned it, it has been more often to condemn it than to defend it

2) It appears to have been condemned within the first three centuries of Christianity, in the writings of the church fathers Origen, and Tertullian

3) The Greek word pornea often translated fornication, has been suggested to include masturbation.

Although this suggestion is predomiantly made by those who also believe it includes all non procreative sex, or all acts of non vaginal sex (even marital ones).

​

4) Life is harder without Masturbation, so it glorifies God more.

5) There is a class of arguments of the form “All acts of masturbation are wrong because they are all have a property p” where the property p is something that the arguer perceives to be immoral.

Notably, if p is immoral, than this only proves that "acts of masturbation are wrong if they have the property p" ; if p is the property of being based on lust, or being extramarital, than a person who masturbates to a feeling of love for his spouse would not proved to be doing an immoral act. In these arguments the person making them also needs to find justification for the idea that p is immoral.
​

5a) All acts of masturbation are wrong because they are all sinful.

It has to be proved from scripture that they are sinful.
​

5b) All acts of masturbation are wrong because sex is a desire of the flesh

It has to be proved that they are the kind of desire of the flesh that needs permanent abstinence (e.g. the desire to rape) rather than the kind of desire that it is good to fast (e.g. hunger) or that doesn’t need abstinence at all (the desire to breath)

​

5c) Some acts of Masturbation involve the kind of fantasy described as sinful in Matt 5:28 "I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart"

then to avoid sin, the masterbator simply has to avoid a certain type of fantasy
​

EDIT as some arguments started coming up repeatedly I thought it might be good to put them in the opening section.

 

[HCrossth2012]

Peace

It is a Sin. What happened to deny yourself and follow me said Jesus. How do we do that if we must play with Ourselves, that Does not sound like denial of ones self but thinking/pleasing even loving my self. This is how I believe.. Simply. No arguments. and no stress.

In Power of God is true freedom and peace.

Peace in the name of The Lord Jesus.

 

[lnname]

What happened to "deny yourself and follow me" said Jesus. How do we do that if we must play with Ourselves, that Does not sound like denial of ones self but thinking/pleasing even loving my self.

I think that's profound and revelatory . I hope you don't mind if I unpack your statement a little, as I have never seen that scripture used in this context before.

"If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."-Matt 16:24

In context Jesus is preparing his disciples for his death, and telling them that they may have similar fates (particularly peter who was also crucified).

It can however be seen to fit into a body of scripture which talks about denial of the flesh. Notably not all fleshly desires are to be denied in the same way, and the relationship between the desire and its denial could be split into three categories:

1) Fleshly desires that should never be denied (e.g. the desire to breath)
2) Fleshly desires that should sometimes be denied (e.g. hunger)
3) Fleshly desires that should always be denied (e.g. the desire to rape)


The question now becomes what category should masturbation be in?
I can imagine few that would put it in 1), so the question then becomes, should it be something that is occasionally fasted, or something that is avoided altogether?

 

[HCrossth2012]

I think that's profound and revelatory . I hope you don't mind if I unpack your statement a little, as I have never seen that scripture used in this context before.

"If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."-Matt 16:24

In context Jesus is preparing his disciples for his death, and telling them that they may have similar fates (particularly peter who was also crucified).

It can however be seen to fit into a body of scripture which talks about denial of the flesh. Notably not all fleshly desires are to be denied in the same way, and the relationship between the desire and its denial could be split into three categories:

1) Fleshly desires that should never be denied (e.g. the desire to breath)
2) Fleshly desires that should sometimes be denied (e.g. hunger)
3) Fleshly desires that should always be denied (e.g. the desire to rape)


The question now becomes what category should masturbation be in?
I can imagine few that would put it in 1), so the question then becomes, should it be something that is occasionally fasted, or something that is avoided altogether?

Peace

Deny crucify follow.

Jesus flesh was crucified, has our sin bound flesh been nailed in front of people and all mighty God. All Jesus's will was till the end Gods. Why in the end when Jesus prayed in the garden to God let it be " your will not mine" Jesus had his own will, but never went with it, why it is said he only does GODs . Amen. Jesus showed even to the end he did everything that was Gods will. When he was baptised God said I am pleased. Why was he pleased? Before he even preached healed, did anythin, but God was pleased, 30 years of pleasing God, so when he was baptised it started. have we pleased god in every way that he can say that he is pleased? or we " try" another favourite word of christians. He did everything by Gods Will. People can look all they like were does masturbation belong, people will always find excuses to keep it in their life. And if that's the case that is not Gods will. You see in Jesus life what is Gods will. You don't see excuses or defeat with sin. Jesus is lord of lord and king of kings no sin in him, and if it is not possible to be with out sin, why did he say Follow me? He came to free " his" people of their Sins. Now we are given Holy Spirit of God freely . Amen. Satan and his sin will run, but they won't if we are the one holding on to him.



1God gave me life it is up to him if I breath.

2Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Sometimes I have food sometimes I don't . Thank God in good and bad.

3Gods will in everything and we won't need to have sin/own will/ what ever else people might thinkn groups.

So if I say, I believer in god, good Christian and I get really angry. At someone, yes I say sorry, repent . And then again get angry say sorry and repent, than again get angry say sorry repent and again and again. Now put any bad thing there at the anger part! Not many are free thats why sin rules. You wanna be a believer in god like that. I sure dont, And more importantly does Jesus want disciples like that. And Jesus is the answer to that.



Peace

 

[lnname]

have we pleased god in every way that he can say that he is pleased? or we " try" another favourite word of christians. He did everything by Gods Will. People can look all they like were does masturbation belong, people will always find excuses to keep it in their life.

Thanks for replying; Your argument seems to be:

Masturbation is a sin
therefore
You should not touch

I agree, that if something is sinful Christians shouldn't do it. I don't think that saying something is what your body desires is the same as saying that it is a sin (e.g. breathing, eating). Why do you think it is a sin?
​

 

[Soulgazer]

People have a very poor understanding over what they should feel guilty about. I.E. a womans breast will earn even an inocuous storyline in a movie an "R" rating, but the ultimate obsenity of people trying to harm each other may be held to a "PG".

 

[Phantasman]

I thought the discussion of masturbation in phantasmans thread (masturbation) was great, but I thought that if it had some neater ground work layed (like you would in the opening comments of a debate) it might be even better. I realize the following might look TLDR, but please read and contribute, I am deeply interested in hearing what you say.

What are the arguments for and against masturbation? Why do you choose to or choose not to?

My arguments for:
1) Complete sexual inactivity promotes genital infections and cancers, and is therefore unlikely to be the will of God

2) Animals (such as goats, otters and chimps) touch if they are kept without those of the opposite sex. Animals are unaffected by the fall and are not sinful.

3)Typically arguments against masturbation are of the form: "all acts of masturbation are wrong because they are all have a property p" where the property p is something that the arguer perceives to be immoral. Notably, if p is immoral, than this only proves that "acts of masturbation are wrong if they have the property p" ; if p is the property of being based on lust, or being extramarital, than a person who masturbates to a feeling of love for his spouse would not proved to be doing an immoral act. In these arguments the person making them also needs to find justification for the idea that p is immoral.

4) Masturbation is not condemned in most English translations of the bible.

my arguments against:
1) The Greek word pornea often translated fornication, has been suggested to include masturbation.

Although this suggestion is predomiantly made by those who also believe it includes all non procreative sex, or all acts of non vaginal sex (even marital ones).

2) Historically, when the church, or people of the church have mentioned it, it has been more often to condemn it than to defend it.

Origen brings up a valid point here:

3. That there are certain sins, however, which do not proceed from the opposing powers, but take their beginnings from the natural movements of the body, is manifestly declared by the Apostle Paul in the passage: "The flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other; so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." If, then, the flesh lust against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh, we have occasionally to wrestle against flesh and blood, i.e., as being men, and walking according to the flesh, and not capable of being tempted by greater than human temptations; since it is said of us, "There hath no temptation taken you, but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able." For as the presidents of the public games do not allow the competitors to enter the lists indiscriminately or fortuitously, but after a careful examination, pairing in a most impartial consid eration either of size or age, this individual with that--boys, e.g., with boys, men with men, who are nearly related to each other either in age or strength; so also must we understand the procedure of divine providence, which arranges on most impartial principles all who descend into the struggles of this human life, according to the nature of each individual's power, which is known only to Him who alone beholds the hearts of men: so that one individual fights against one temptation of the flesh, another against a second; one is exposed to its influence for so long a period of time, another only for so long; one is tempted by the flesh to this or that indulgence, another to one of a different kind; one has to resist this or that hostile power, another has to combat two or three at the same time; or at one time this hostile influence, at another that; at some particular date having to resist one enemy, and at another a different one; being, after the performance of certain acts, exposed to one set of enemies, after others to a second. And observe whether some such state of things be not indicated by the language of the apostle: "God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above what ye are able," i.e., each one is tempted in proportion to the amount of his strength or power of resistance. Now, although we have said that it is by the just judgment of God that every one is tempted according to the amount of his strength, we are not therefore to suppose that he who is tempted ought by all means to prove victorious in the struggle; in like manner as he who contends in the lists, although paired with his adversary on a just principle of arrangement, will nevertheless not necessarily prove conqueror. But unless the powers of the combatants are equal, the prize of the victor will not be justly won; nor will blame justly attach to the vanquished, because He allows us indeed to be tempted, but not "beyond what we are able:" for it is in proportion to our strength that we are tempted; and it is not written that, in temptation, He will make also a way to escape so as that we should bear it, but a way to escape so as that we should be able to bear it. But it depends upon ourselves to use either with energy or feebleness this power which He has given us. For there is no doubt that under every temptation we have a power of endurance, if we employ properly the strength that is granted us. But it is not the same thing to possess the power of conquering and to be victorious, as the apostle himself has shown in very cautious language, saying, "God will make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it," not that you will bear it. For many do not sustain temptation, but are overcome by it. Now God enables us not to sustain (temptation), (otherwise there would appear to be no struggle), but to have the power of sustaining it. But this power which is given us to enable us to conquer may be used, according to our faculty of free-will, either in a diligent manner, and then we prove victorious, or in a slothful manner, and then we are defeated. For if such a power were wholly given us as that we must by all means prove victorious, and never be defeated, what further reason for a struggle could remain to him who cannot be overcome?


A non commandment sin? Maybe, but all men dealt with it obviously. And Origen (who became a eunuch) is careful in addressing it.

 

[Xpistis sopheiaX]

Denying our body things in order to be "holy" makes our bodies as much of a false idol as worshiping physical pleasure through hedonism.

 

[Xpistis sopheiaX]

People have a very poor understanding over what they should feel guilty about. I.E. a womans breast will earn even an inocuous storyline in a movie an "R" rating, but the ultimate obsenity of people trying to harm each other may be held to a "PG".

I recently read an interesting quote by the author George R.R. Martin and he said he can write about bloody violence all he wants and no one ever complains, but if he writes a sexy love scene he gets all kinds of angry hate mail. He seemed pretty baffled by that and said something to the effect that: "Nobody ever got any pleasure by having an axe smash through their face, but a lot of people have received a lot of joy from sex, I don't know why sex is so much more offensive."

 

[lnname]

A non commandment sin? Maybe, but all men dealt with it obviously. And Origen (who became a eunuch) is careful in addressing it.

Thanks for replying, and also for quoting Origen. I am a big fan of early church writings, but haven't read his yet. Do you know who was the first to directly condemn masturbation? Origen is pretty early, but two generations or more from the apostles. Considering the amount that is written about the wrongness of fornication, this omission might be significant.

 

[Phantasman]

Tertullian wrote:

But we read "that the flesh is weak;" and hence we soothe ourselves in some cases. Yet we read, too, that "the spirit is strong;" for each clause occurs in one and the same sentence. Flesh is an earthly, spirit a heavenly, material. Why, then, do we, too prone to self-excuse, put forward (in our defence) the weak part of us, but not look at the strong? Why should not the earthly yield to the heavenly? If the spirit is stronger than the flesh, because it is withal of nobler origin, it is our own fault if we follow the weaker. Now there are two phases of human weakness which make marriages necessary to such as are disjoined from matrimony. The first and most powerful is that which arises from fleshly concupiscence; the second, from worldly concupiscence. But by us, who are servants of God, who renounce both voluptuousness and ambition, each is to be repudiated. Fleshly concupiscence claims the functions of adult age, craves after beauty's harvest, rejoices in its own shame, pleads the necessity of a husband to the female sex, as a source of authority and of comfort, or to render it safe from evil rumours. To meet these its counsels, do you apply the examples of sisters of ours whose names are with the Lord,--who, when their husbands have preceded them (to glory), give to no opportunity of beauty or of age the precedence over holiness. They prefer to be wedded to God. To God their beauty, to God their youth (is dedicated). With Him they live; with Him they converse; Him they "handle" by day and by night; to the Lord they assign their prayers as dowries; from Him, as oft as they desire it, they receive His approbation as dotal gifts. Thus they have laid hold for themselves of an eternal gift of the Lord; and while on earth, by abstaining from marriage, are already counted as belonging to the angelic family. Training yourself to an emulation of (their) constancy by the examples of such women, you will by spiritual affection bury that fleshly concupiscence, in abolishing the temporal and fleeting desires of beauty and youth by the compensating gain of immortal blessings.


He had a lot to do with Catholic formation. He expresses the need for "soothing" yet he was extremely patriarch in his ideas, calling all women "Eve", as first sinners.


Irenaeus doesn't have much, but was institutional in a lot of church ideas by simply writing "Against Heresies". Though I found this fragment to back up Gnosticism, IMO:

"True knowledge, then, consists in the understanding of Christ, which Paul terms the wisdom of God hidden in a mystery, which "the natural man receiveth not," the doctrine of the cross; of which if any man "taste," he will not accede to the disputations and quibbles of proud and puffed-up men, who go into matters of which they have no perception."

 

[HCrossth2012]

Thanks for replying; Your argument seems to be:

Masturbation is a sin
therefore
You should not touch

I agree, that if something is sinful Christians shouldn't do it. I don't think that saying something is what your body desires is the same as saying that it is a sin (e.g. breathing, eating). Why do you think it is a sin?
​

Peace

I use to have ' issues' with it.....and I am women. Very long story.
Anyway I say it is A Sin. We are humans, apostols were humans, everyone has opinion, but what matteres how we seek Gods desire in our life. I seek only that.
And God shows me about my situations with sin. And if I don't know what i should feel guilt about I am ok, With that cause I gave my life to God so he can tell me. And R rated movies are far from me, to me all movies and tv are rubbish, I use Jesus as my example not movies. Simple life.

Peace

 

[GuardianShua]

Thanks for replying, and also for quoting Origen. I am a big fan of early church writings, but haven't read his yet. Do you know who was the first to directly condemn masturbation? Origen is pretty early, but two generations or more from the apostles. Considering the amount that is written about the wrongness of fornication, this omission might be significant.

Fornication is about sexual relations between a man and woman apart from marriage. It has nothing to do with touching yourself.

 

[TheCigarLady]

In my lacking the in-depth knowledge that everyone else seems to have here, I find much of what was written above confusing in some aspects.

Maybe I have a more Earthly view of what is ok and what is not based on what I have learned through life and my path and what I have been 'told' through prayer and meditation...

God gave you a vessel for which to carry His work and word. Also for which to please your spouse, should you choose to find one. It is up to you to take care of that vessel to ensure the safety and continued aforementioned. He gave you 'buttons' for lack of a better term. Those 'buttons' allow you to feel pleasure and enjoy the relations between you and your spouse. The more you explore what makes things pleasurable, I believe the better your relationship and intimacy is. Some people figure this stuff out with their spouse. Others may need to figure it out on their own.

Not to mention that an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] releases endorphins, creating chemical reactions within the body that promote other positive things within the body, including helping with depression-related issues.

I guess my point is, why would it be a bad thing to explore your own vessel in ways that do not harm anyone else? You have not touched anyone else, nor engaged in pre-marital sex or committed a crime.

Is it really so terrible to even practice something that which comes naturally in most cases when with your spouse? Knowing what you like and don't like helps your partner ensure your equal pleasures are reached (provided he/she is attentive like that). I believe intimacy is strengthened when each partner is confident in their knowledge and desires and can communicate them effectively. Many couples have marital problems that start with their intimacy being complacent--divorces often start this way, even if not recognized at first. I know my first marriage ended partly because of this--I wish I had recognized it sooner. If your relationship needs spicing up in the bedroom, what is so wrong about finding new 'hot buttons' on your own and then engaging in them with your partner?

The only time I see it becoming a problem is if it starts taking the place of holding your energies for your spouse to release rather than helping enhance intimacy. It should be up to individuals to know how to recognize that point of going too far.

Then again... this is just my opinion. Just what I have learned over time, at least with my life experiences.

 

[true2theword]

Ephesians 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.


although this post as many others trying to show this sexual immoral act as sinful seem to get removed, I will attempt again to post scriptures that show masturbation is a sexual act outside the confines of marriage. If anyone thinks its not a sin then its also not a sin to have sex with a blowup doll or a vegetable. It appears that naming folks who teach that its not a sin is against the rules.


interesting that this websight has such a strong stand against promoting homosexuality, yet you can have sex with anything else and promote doing it and nobody will say anything to you. Infact call any attention against someone promoting sex with any inadament object and you will find yourself in hotwater.

pay close attention this post to will be removed, seems sex outside the confines of marriage is just a free for all, to bad people aren't as interested in how to overcome this strong addiction and be setfree

 

[GuardianShua]

Ephesians 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Ephesians 2

King James Version (KJV)

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


I do not think that verse is speaking of touching yourself.

 

[Xpistis sopheiaX]

I wondered when someone would step up and speak out against the rampaging blight against the entire universe, that is having sex with vegetables

 

[Soulgazer]

In my lacking the in-depth knowledge that everyone else seems to have here, I find much of what was written above confusing in some aspects.

Maybe I have a more Earthly view of what is ok and what is not based on what I have learned through life and my path and what I have been 'told' through prayer and meditation...

God gave you a vessel for which to carry His work and word. Also for which to please your spouse, should you choose to find one. It is up to you to take care of that vessel to ensure the safety and continued aforementioned. He gave you 'buttons' for lack of a better term. Those 'buttons' allow you to feel pleasure and enjoy the relations between you and your spouse. The more you explore what makes things pleasurable, I believe the better your relationship and intimacy is. Some people figure this stuff out with their spouse. Others may need to figure it out on their own.

Not to mention that an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] releases endorphins, creating chemical reactions within the body that promote other positive things within the body, including helping with depression-related issues.

I guess my point is, why would it be a bad thing to explore your own vessel in ways that do not harm anyone else? You have not touched anyone else, nor engaged in pre-marital sex or committed a crime.

Is it really so terrible to even practice something that which comes naturally in most cases when with your spouse? Knowing what you like and don't like helps your partner ensure your equal pleasures are reached (provided he/she is attentive like that). I believe intimacy is strengthened when each partner is confident in their knowledge and desires and can communicate them effectively. Many couples have marital problems that start with their intimacy being complacent--divorces often start this way, even if not recognized at first. I know my first marriage ended partly because of this--I wish I had recognized it sooner. If your relationship needs spicing up in the bedroom, what is so wrong about finding new 'hot buttons' on your own and then engaging in them with your partner?

The only time I see it becoming a problem is if it starts taking the place of holding your energies for your spouse to release rather than helping enhance intimacy. It should be up to individuals to know how to recognize that point of going too far.

Then again... this is just my opinion. Just what I have learned over time, at least with my life experiences.

I would say your husband is a lucky guy.

As a minister, I have had to deal with this question again and again. Our bodies are going to put demands on us. In a perfect world, we might be able to ignore those demands, but it's not a perfect world.

For a male, the peak sexuality hits at 18, and it's down hill from there. Depending on the male, after forty he may have to be reminded he has genitals. For women, it's age 36. Life isn't fair :0

We should not let anything master us, including our own flesh. However, as we did not design our own flesh, our responsibility is somewhat limited in that regard. We may set ourselves goals, but if we slip, oh well, there is tomorrow. As far as self pleasure, touching yourself is better than a fatherless child. Or a marriage between two people who should really be in school, or concentrating on enjoying their youth. Paul was good at a LOT of things, but I really would not give him high marks as a marriage councellor.

The things that we CAN control, are our responsibilities. How we treat others, not keeping anger in our hearts, lusting after the body of another(which in this context means to use and cast aside, not your husband.). How we view the homeless guy, the rain soaked kitten, and our neighbor struggling to get groceries out of her car.

I sincerely believe God is watching our hearts, not our genitals.

 

[Phantasman]

Ephesians 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.


although this post as many others trying to show this sexual immoral act as sinful seem to get removed, I will attempt again to post scriptures that show masturbation is a sexual act outside the confines of marriage. If anyone thinks its not a sin then its also not a sin to have sex with a blowup doll or a vegetable. It appears that naming folks who teach that its not a sin is against the rules.


interesting that this websight has such a strong stand against promoting homosexuality, yet you can have sex with anything else and promote doing it and nobody will say anything to you. Infact call any attention against someone promoting sex with any inadament object and you will find yourself in hotwater.

pay close attention this post to will be removed, seems sex outside the confines of marriage is just a free for all, to bad people aren't as interested in how to overcome this strong addiction and be setfree

The reason the post might get removed, is because we are talking of masturbation and you are starting to go into sex with inanimate objects. Debate the subject as as intended.

 

[Blackwater Babe]

2) Animals (such as goats, otters and chimps)

How to goats touch? They have hooves!