Are you prejudice towards a certain Christian group?

gideons300 · Nov 12, 2014

ByTheSpirit said:
What you say is true gideon. I agree. What Im saying is God used a dumb donkey to speak the truth. He used evil intentioned Philippians. He can use a money hungry celebrity too. Their outcome is between them and God, but their message if centered on Christ can STILL get souls saved... So lets not condemn their message if it is the truth. Really we shouldnt even condemn them either, but a warning is allowed I believe.

Brother, I think we are far closer than either of us can even see. I know your heart and you are a sincere and valued brother in the Lord. It is not their message per se that I am condemning. It is their application of said message. Unfortunately, a bad example does far more damage than good. Just ask anyone at work who is not a Christian as to what they think of ministers who are worth $40M. Trust me, they will give you an earful. In this area, the children of this world are wiser than the children of light.

If instead, a man preaches Christ and then backs up with a life of purity, lowliness, caring for others, there is great power there. When I witness, I often have to get the hearer's eyes off of ministers and back to the life Jesus lived, for here they can find little to object to. Unfortunately, they see what we have done with Jesus, and any conviction goes out the window. Most men in the world who do love the light are kept from it by what they see in our lives, and that ought not be.

When that bothers us enough to seek the face of God as to why that is, and what we need to change this sad state, we will be surprised and blessed by the answer. But as long as we make excuses for the men of the cloth whose heart is rooted in this life and what it can offer them, we will continue to stumble, and give the lost plenty of reasons to stay lost.

Blessings to you, brother

Gids

gideons300 · Nov 12, 2014

Andrea411 said:
Yes, where I am divided on the issue is - ministries actually take truck loads of money to run. Air time is expensive, if the preachers are poor, what does that say about our gospel. Does God indeed provide? The proof is that most Christian countries become more wealthy, as a whole. Even though the gospel has always gone out and was first excepted by the poorest and most neglected people in every society.

Christianity bc it helps the poor, offers a way out of poverty, sickness, disease, addiction and brings out the best in man. Whole societies change. Historically Christianity has been the best thing to happen to the poor. We then watch as Christianity is purged from some countries and they return to the dark ages....

I still have a problem with 15,000$ per night hotels and 5-6 jets but I don't like to make an issue of it bc the infighting brings discord. We have no choice but to allow those to bear their own conscience before the Lord.

It still bugs me...

God bless, andrea

Andrea, ponder for a minute. Jesus was a poor man and had no place of his own to lay his head. He who owned the universe chose to live a common life. What does that say about his gospel? To me, it makes me value Him even more and gives more power to His truth.

It is not that Jesus wants us poor. He wants us to share so that he who has little has no lack, and he who has much has nothing left over. What a concept.

As to ministries needing money to operate, why is this? Are we not told to ask and receive that our joy may be full? (Ask God not ask man) Are we not instructed to tell no man that we need anything, but to tell God our needs in secret. Then He will reward us openly.

I do not know if you are aware of a man called George Meuller. He was led to open an orphanage and never ask for funds...ever. If asked what he needed, he was to say that God is bountifully supplying. He relied totally on faith that God meant what he said and could be trusted. Near the end of his life, he was caring for 800 children. One morning, there was no food for breakfast and he excitedly awoke the children, telling them they were about to witness a miracle. Soon a wagon pulled up loaded ith bread. A wmen said she was prayng and god told her to bring it. Immediately thereafter, a milk wagon broke a wheel outside the orphanage. The dairyman told Mr. Meuller that his milk would spoil so he gave it to the children. O Lord, I want that type of faith! That is how faith is to work. How very far we are from such a walk. I pray my own life begins to mimic such an utter complete trust. God is our provider, not those who are battered with pleas and a "free copy" of the minister's latest teaching for giving. I pray we are turned back in these last days to the purity of the gospel.

I hope all is well with you.

Blessings,

Gideon

Always in His Presence · Nov 12, 2014

can we stay on topic please do not derail the thread

Always in His Presence · Nov 12, 2014

can we stay on topic please?

lismore · Nov 12, 2014

Simply Put said:
Even like the case of Joel Osteen, who takes no salary from their church, they are quick to attempt to discredit and nullify their ministry because of wealth.

Are bhuddists, muslims and pagans saved already Joel?

Ah well um. I just try to be a nice man.

ToBeBlessed · Nov 12, 2014

lismore said:
Are bhuddists, muslims and pagans saved already Joel?

Ah well um. I just try to be a nice man.

lismore · Nov 12, 2014

Simply Put said:
Are you prejudice towards a certain Christian group?

Not prejudiced no. But wary.

Christian leaders who are asked basic questions about salvation but do not seem to know the answer. I would be wary of those.

gideons300 · Nov 12, 2014

Simply Put said:
And yet, their ministries continue to blossom and grow - they reach thousands and thousands throughout the US and the world with aid and the Gospel. And God certainly is blessing their efforts.

Maybe, just maybe God isn't as concerned as some of us?

Abraham was greatly used - and exceedingly rich

Moses and Israel left with the wealth of Egypt (enough earrings and ring to form a full size golden calf) and greatly used

Joseph was the second richest man in the world, lived in palaces

The Tabernacle in the wilderness was worth 23,000,000 in todays prices

Solomon had a yearly tribute of 16 billion dollars from his subjects

David was the wealthiest man in his country - lived in Palaces

Poor ole Job, when he repented was blessed with an equivalent of 160,000,000 dollars of livestock and possessions.

If the three kings followed Old Testament guidelines, they presented Jesus with ten talents of Gold along with Frankincense and Mir. Roughly 7,000,000 in today's currency.

The disciples at one point traveled with a treasury of more than 28,000 in spendable cash.

Jesus had his feet anointed with a bottle of perfume worth 18,000

Paul said

Phillipeans 4:12 I know how to be abased and live humbly in straitened circumstances, and I know also how to enjoy plenty and live in abundance. I have learned in any and all circumstances the secret of facing every situation, whether well-fed or going hungry, having a sufficiency and enough to spare or going without and being in want.

Why do some only refer to half of that, and say he was poor?

Do you not find it strange that every example you list is from the old testament? Can you name one apostle in the new testament who lived a sumptuous lifestyle?

Your reasonings totally ignores clear warnings as to the dangers of loving earthly things. They that would be rich fall into a snare. Do we REALLY believe that? They give out of their wealth, and still lack nothing; Their Lear jets do not miss fuel stops. They have plenty of money for another car. It reminds me of the Lord observing two in the temple, a rich man and a poor widow. The rich man, with great fanfare, gave muchand all were impressed, all but Jesus. Another gave just a pittance a widow's mite, and she did it in the shadows, with no one observing her. But Jesus saw her, and what did Jesus say? The rich man gave out of his abundance. Easy. To him, it was a widow's mite sized gift. The poor widow gave all she had. And that was the one who impressed Jesus. It is not how much we give, but the condition of our heart when we give it that truly impresses God.

Should we not think like Him, and as well, long to live like him? Should He and His word not be our true example? Paul's abundance that you speak of was when he was under house arrest and lived rent free for two years, without having to perform his day job, sewing tents. A far cry from Lear jets and five vacation houses. To live in safety with three meals and to be able to preach to all who came to visit him, what a luxury! !hat was his definition of abounding. Other than that, he worked full time during the day so he could preach at night without ever seeking money from those he preached to. Why did he say he did this? Because he sought them, not theirs.

How we have twisted the truth to make it say what we want, but to do so, we have to ignore clear concise scriptures that say the opposite of what we are wanting them to say. The word is clear, no matter how we cloud it with human reasonings that seek to not only excuse greed and avarice, but to actually attempt to make it sound spiritual, as if God is blessing them. But God knows men's hearts and in the end, many that think they are blessed will find instead their riches are a curse and a testimony against them.

Blessings, SP

Gideon

ToBeBlessed · Nov 12, 2014

Another one ....

Why do you not preach about sin and how the cross saves us from our own sin, Joel?

I don't talk about sin. I want them to know God is good.

Always in His Presence · Nov 12, 2014

lismore said:
Not prejudiced no. But wary.

Christian leaders who are asked basic questions about salvation but do not seem to know the answer. I would be wary of those.

Here is his basics on salvation from his website

We Believe
the entire Bible is inspired by God, without error and the authority on which we base our faith, conduct and doctrine.

in one God who exists in three distinct persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God who came to this earth as Savior of the world.

Jesus died on the cross and shed His blood for our sins. We believe that salvation is found by placing our faith in what Jesus did for us on the cross. We believe Jesus rose from the dead and is coming again.

water baptism is a symbol of the cleansing power of the blood of Christ and a testimony to our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

in the regular taking of Communion as an act of remembering what the Lord Jesus did for us on the cross.

every believer should be in a growing relationship with Jesus by obeying Gods Word, yielding to the Holy Spirit and by being conformed to the image of Christ.

as children of God, we are overcomers and more than conquerors and God intends for each of us to experience the abundant life He has in store for us.

What part do you disagree with?

lismore · Nov 12, 2014

Simply Put said:
What part do you disagree with?

What part does he disagree with might be a better question. After all, people have been known to say one thing and do another. (Or in Joel's case to be caught without his script and put his foot in it)

Always in His Presence · Nov 12, 2014

lismore said:
What part does he disagree with might be a better question. After all, people have been known to say one thing and do another. (Or in Joel's case to be caught without his script and put his foot in it)

I don't have a clue as to what you re referring to. I can only go by what the man says he believes on his sight. It's only the second time I ever went there.

But the people I'm referring to are complaining about his wealth - not stance on salvation - check out the OP again.

mourningdove~ · Nov 12, 2014

Simply Put said:
Most will say out of the other side of their mouth that money means nothing to them, but that is negated by the shear volume of posts they do on money.

That's what I see, too.

And every time I see the same protests, by the same persons, over and over again, I think of this quote from Shakespeare:

"Methinks thou dost protest too much."

ByTheSpirit · Nov 12, 2014

Simply Put said:
Here is his basics on salvation from his website

We Believe…
… the entire Bible is inspired by God, without error and the authority on which we base our faith, conduct and doctrine.

… in one God who exists in three distinct persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God who came to this earth as Savior of the world.

… Jesus died on the cross and shed His blood for our sins. We believe that salvation is found by placing our faith in what Jesus did for us on the cross. We believe Jesus rose from the dead and is coming again.

… water baptism is a symbol of the cleansing power of the blood of Christ and a testimony to our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

… in the regular taking of Communion as an act of remembering what the Lord Jesus did for us on the cross.

… every believer should be in a growing relationship with Jesus by obeying God’s Word, yielding to the Holy Spirit and by being conformed to the image of Christ.

… as children of God, we are overcomers and more than conquerors and God intends for each of us to experience the abundant life He has in store for us.

What part do you disagree with?

Never mind, I forgot we are not to speak negatively about public figures... but I can say this:

A tree is known by its fruit!

Frogster · Nov 12, 2014

ByTheSpirit said:
Never mind, I forgot we are not to speak negatively about public figures... but I can say this:

A tree is known by its fruit!

hi, but you are allowed to talk about their doctrine, or error, and what you do not agree with.

Frogster · Nov 12, 2014

gideons300 said:
Frog, I know you and I often see things differently, but on this subject, you are spot on. There are those trying to make it ok to own Lear jets, five houses...extravagant ones, make millions off the gospel, and think they are fine...even godly in doing so. But the word tells us that they are making merchandise of the sheep, shearing and fleecing them. They will be getting their reward now, while the poor will get theirs in the resurrection.

How do we try to justify a man of God living like that when they mind earthly things? Can we even imagine Paul or Peter doing so, living high on the hog while their converts struggle to put food on the table? I certainly cannot. Jesus himself had no place to lay His head, yet he had true riches.

Are not ministers supposed to lead by example as to what is important and what is not? These have tried to teach in so many words that gain is godliness and we are warned to run far from these who teach...and live sumptuously.

Paul exhorted us to follow him just as he followed Christ. He worked by day to preach by night so that he could offer people truth free of charge. May God give us real men of God that live what they preach. It is tough to believe the words of a "man of God" whose life testifies that his treasure is here, and that the world really does satisfy.

People will say "Yes, but look at all the good that they are doing." Really? What results from such converts except that they learn a twisted gospel with just enough truth to seem like Christianity, and then they become just like those they hold in admiration,

The bottom line is it is not real Christianity at all. Is Jesus really preached? Not the Jesus I know. The scriptures are clear on materialism and covetousness, but some simply do not want to hear it. Is it any wonder many have fallen into a ditch?

But the true church is arising and we will walk in truth in word AND deep, for the two are inseparable. Thank you for being firm on this subject. Many need to hear it.

Blessings, to you.

Gids

yes, we do agree....

I am sure we would agree on this too

Why is the our best life now according to Joel O, I thought Abraham looked for a different city?

Frogster · Nov 12, 2014

jiminpa said:
How many starving children could you have fed with the money you wasted on your computer, and how many could you feed on an ongoing basis with the money you spend on an ISP? If we are going to judge someone else's excess, we have to look in the mirror first.

please,,your holding up a needed object, an ISP, no comparison at all, to the rich preacher, Peter said they can't be greedy in 1 Peter 5, and Paul said so too.

I would advise an in depth study of 1 Tim 6. It smacks down the have it all now false gosepl big time. It just goes to show that same spirit was around in Paul's day too.

jiminpa · Nov 13, 2014

An ISP is not a need. I have never heard of anyone dying of lack of an ISP. An ISP is a luxury, and if an itinerant preacher doesn't need transportation, there is certainly no justification for something as excessive as an ISP. What did Jesus say about the poor, and luxurious items to his treasurer?

I don't like preachers who have more money than they will ever be able to spend and who won't lift a finger to help the poor, but the interesting thing is that those ones aren't the ones being criticized for it. I know of one who said on his radio broadcast that he isn't a soup kitchen, and he didn't mean that he has other ways that he helps the poor, he meant that he can't be bothered. I've never seen him mentioned on this board.

The OP, and the truth are that we are playing into the hands of the preachers of another gospel. We are shooting our own, over something superficial and that doesn't matter, and ignoring what does matter. God owns everything. A private jet does not diminish His treasury a single bit. If the cessationists can get us to join their chorus of false accusations against Pentecostal and Charismatic preachers while ignoring their con artists who help no one, it gives them credibility that their mostly humanist theology lacks.

I actually admire preachers who understand their audience and don't spend all of their time preaching salvation to the saved.

mrhappy3 · Nov 13, 2014

gideons300 said:
Who are we? We are men and women of God filled with wisdom and truth from our God... that is who we are. Much has been misunderstood about "judging". Are we not told to not judge those that are outside the family of God, but what about those inside? We are to examine them and their fruits and react accordingly.

That is scripture, not just my opinion. If we are to have no fellowship with blatant sinners inside the church, how exactly do we do that without judging? By judging, I do not mean pronouncing sentence. I mean examining men's words, men's fruits and if there is error, we are to expose, confront in humility and love and if there is no repentance, we are to avoid them, so that shame will bring them back into the fold, amen? That protects the integrity of the church and as well, gives men caught in the snare of the devil a wake up call to force a choice, for you cannot remain a Christian wile walking in overt rebellion and darkness.

The problem we face in the modern church is that when the scriptures were written, holiness unto the Lord was the norm and there were simply a few in gross error. They believed a man could walk as a living sacrifice and that God thought it quite reasonable.

Unfortunately, it is not so today, is it. We, as a whole, do not even believe walking in purity is truly even possible, so naturally we shy away from judging, for we know our own heart and actions will not stand up to the same scrutiny. Thank God, that is all about to change. We are about to re-discover the truth of what being without spot or wrinkle really means. It will be glorious.

Love ya Hap

Gids

amen

ByTheSpirit · Nov 13, 2014

Actually an ISP is a need for most people in todays society. For work or school... so again I do not see how comparing someone buying a computer compares to a preacher buying a jet and then on top those who ask for donations to spruce it up a bit.

Are you prejudice towards a certain Christian group?

Without looking it up, did you know who the pastor of the second largest church is?

Yes

No

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