Discussion Are you more than sin?

[ToBeLoved]

I truly am so sad about how bad theology concerning the place of sin in the lives of Christians has pulled so many into leaving the church.

I was just reading and responding to a poster in another section of CF on this issue and I see this over, and over, and over in belivers. When they can't obtain victory OVER SIN, they feel failure and fall away.

Let's put sin in it's place! Jesus is victorious over sin, HE DID IT.

Enough of this kicking each other in the teeth over 'who is victorious', 'who is a true Christian' and 'who is really obedient'. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

This is the particular post that I am referencing, but failure in Christ is all over and rampant in our faith. How many are we going to LOSE to WIN the battle over sin? All of the Pharisee's who promote this legalistic, attitude are doing more HARM to the Kingdom than good.

This is the post and my reply. Let's discuss it. LET's ACKNOWLEDGE CHRIST'S VICTORY OVER SIN. Not ours. We are washed by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB.

I recently (toward the beginning of this year) gave up the faith I had been raised in and which I had tried fervently to practice as a young adult, after a sort of mental breakdown in which I suddenly decided that the God I had been praying to and trusting was just an imaginary friend, and all the guilt I had been wallowing in was unnecessary.

Prior to this point, I had been obsessed with getting victory over "sin" in my life. Filled with despair and hopelessness at times, I was constantly living in fear about being out of control and being judged by society and by God. There is more, but I will spare you the sordid details of what my "faith" almost drove me to do.

Since turning my back on the "God" I had previously tried to know and to please, and since embracing that part of myself I had been repressing for so long, I feel as if things have changed for the better. I am no longer wracked with guilt and fear, and there is no longer the old inner "battle" that believers are so familiar with. Unbelief- what a relief!

Dear brother,

Don't you see the lie that you have bought hook, line and sinker about your faith?

It is the 'overcoming sin' is the most important aspect of who you are in Christ. That is not true.

Jesus overcame sin on the cross FOR YOU. Jesus sent His Holy Spirit to you to convict you of your sin, not that you obsess about your not obtaining victory over it. We all sin and fall short. ALL OF US.

Do not obsess with who YOU are in Christ, know WHO CHRIST is in you. That is who YOU ARE. You are a sinner made righteous through the precious blood of Christ. It is NO LONGER you who lives, BUT CHRIST who lives in you! CHRIST. Not you. Don't obsess who you are in your inadequacies and sin. If we do that, we obsess over what we DO NOT DO. Know that it is not WHAT WE DO, BUT WHAT CHRIST HAS DONE FOR US.

Chuck your sin obsession to the curb. Satan has convinced you that your sin is who you are. It is NOT who you are. You are a 'new' creature in Christ Jesus. HIS BLOOD has washed you clean, His blood has obtained VICTORY OVER SIN. HE DID IT. You don't have to do what God has done for you.

Please re-evaluate who you are. You are a KING's Kid. Jesus OVERCAME SIN and as His child, He is your perfect advocate. He will stand in your place and wash EVERY SIN AWAY.

Don't sweat what Jesus has already done. PM me. Let's talk.

 

[Svt4Him]

For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and into godliness brotherly affection, and into brotherly affection love.

Virtue seems to be pretty important, so I wouldn't simply ignore it under the guise of legalism, otherwise one becomes lawless.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The topic is are we more in Christ than sin.

No one is saying that we do not need to recognize that sin has consequences and that Jesus wants obedience.

I saw this statement coming a mile away, I should have stated it in BOLD upfront as this is the standard line argument. It does not take away from the fact that legalism is rampant in Christianity. Sin is more discussed than the gospel. People debate sin more than save to the kingdom and feel perfectly justified by it.

Could Paul have been any more clear? That's why few discuss the gospel, because no one is doing the work of Christ.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I am going to add a two page disclaimer to my signature. Then instead of responding and taking time to do that I'll just refer to the disclaimer. Save myself some time repeating the same things. Lol.

 

[Radicchio]

ToBeLoved - your words state it very well: "Do not obsess with who YOU are in Christ, know WHO CHRIST is in you. That is who YOU ARE. You are a sinner made righteous through the precious blood of Christ."

1 John 1:9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

 

[LaSorcia]

Amen! No need to get terrified thinking that grace will make us sin. I find it the best motivator to be good! As I've grown with God and our relationship has gotten closer, I almost never sin on purpose.

I almost never feel guilty when I do mess up. Really. Guilt is a time and energy waster. I confess to God (sometimes to another person), apologize and ask for help, and try to reorient my internal compass towards God. I thank God for forgiveness and try to forgive myself.

Thank you for stressing this. After all, it is the GOSPEL, not the bad news of rules you must follow or be condemned.

 

[ToBeLoved]

ToBeLoved - your words state it very well: "Do not obsess with who YOU are in Christ, know WHO CHRIST is in you. That is who YOU ARE. You are a sinner made righteous through the precious blood of Christ."

1 John 1:9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Amen brother!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Amen! No need to get terrified thinking that grace will make us sin. I find it the best motivator to be good! As I've grown with God and our relationship has gotten closer, I almost never sin on purpose.

I almost never feel guilty when I do mess up. Really. Guilt is a time and energy waster. I confess to God (sometimes to another person), apologize and ask for help, and try to reorient my internal compass towards God. I thank God for forgiveness and try to forgive myself.

Thank you for stressing this. After all, it is the GOSPEL, not the bad news of rules you must follow or be condemned.

Exactly. But worse is that I have been hearing more and more people that are falling away. Turning away from the faith because they feel failure in themselves and failure of God (and His power or in their eyes, lack there of).

It is truly a tragedy. My heart has been breaking for months now. So many are struggling. So many are walking away.

 

[Svt4Him]

The topic is are we more in Christ than sin.

No one is saying that we do not need to recognize that sin has consequences and that Jesus wants obedience.

I saw this statement coming a mile away, I should have stated it in BOLD upfront as this is the standard line argument. It does not take away from the fact that legalism is rampant in Christianity. Sin is more discussed than the gospel. People debate sin more than save to the kingdom and feel perfectly justified by it.

Could Paul have been any more clear? That's why few discuss the gospel, because no one is doing the work of Christ.

Nor does that negate the fact that lawlessness is equally rampant, as they are different sides to the same coin.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Nor does that negate the fact that lawlessness is equally rampant, as they are different sides to the same coin.

Maybe because there is more condemnation than edification. Why don't we help our brothers and sisters through their trials and not just point out the sin to them? That's why I think we like pointing out sin. It's easy, it's quick and it takes little work on our parts.

I don't see pointing out sin if we are not ready to edify and lift them back up. I'll take the long way. I don't condemn what I am not willing to pick up and carry their burden with them. Maybe that's how we are different.

 

[Svt4Him]

Maybe because there is more condemnation than edification. Why don't we help our brothers and sisters through their trials and not just point out the sin to them? That's why I think we like pointing out sin. It's easy, it's quick and it takes little work on our parts.

I don't see pointing out sin if we are not ready to edify and lift them back up. I'll take the long way. I don't condemn what I am not willing to pick up and carry their burden with them. Maybe that's how we are different.

I don't recall pointing out anyone's sin. Maybe that's how we are different.

I condemn abusing children. Maybe I don't make sweeping statements that have no form to them. Maybe that's another way we're different.

Doesn't address any of my points though. Also maybe why we're different.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I don't recall pointing out anyone's sin. Maybe that's how we are different.

I condemn abusing children. Maybe I don't make sweeping statements that have no form to them. Maybe that's another way we're different.

Doesn't address any of my points though. Also maybe why we're different.

Can you be more specific. Your talking in riddles.

Are you upset that I was talking about how many Christians we have been losing lately over the topic of sin? That through the promotion of legalists that many people see Christianity has a standard that people should be able to overcome their sin and if they cannot or do not, that something is wrong with them. Somethng is wrong with their relationship with Christ and that having Christ and the Holy Spirit is not powerful enough to get them to a place where they feel victorious over their sin. They do not feel like they are a true Christian.

That babes in Christ are taught that maybe they were 'not' saved if they cannot get their sin in check. We should have them doubting their salvation because of sin? Isn't condemning sin the Holy Spirit's role? Is He then not doing His role that Christians feel the need to condemn themselves sin and sinners. Sinners judging sinners sin. We are to bring sin to their attention and show them in the Word why they need to repent. That's our role. But sin obsession in others is rampant. I think that gives God no glory and makes the Holy Spirit seem ineffective in doing His job in a sinner's life.

What parts do you disagree with that you posted about lawlessmess?

As I have heard this same message here on the spirit-filled forum, I decided to share here that there are people that are turning away from the faith because of it.

How does that relate back to your comment about lawlessness? Are you saying that they want to be lawless and intentionally turning their back on Christ so they can live this lawlessness out in their lives?

I'm not seeing how your comment relates back to the post? The only thing that I thought of was that you disagree that it is in Christ, not in us (since He OVERCAME sin) that wasn't enough? I'm not seeing what it means.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I don't recall pointing out anyone's sin. Maybe that's how we are different.

I condemn abusing children. Maybe I don't make sweeping statements that have no form to them. Maybe that's another way we're different.

Doesn't address any of my points though. Also maybe why we're different.

I think it was your reference to lawelessness. How does that fit in to the OP? No one who feels so wracked with guilt over sin is practicing lawlessness. That is what I am talking about. The guilt of sin. Christians not being able to forgive themselves even after Jesus has forgiven them. Their feelings of failure, inadequacies in Christ. Finding no power in the Holy Spirit and our faith in general to be overcomer's. This is what legalism promotes and the reprocussions in many people's lives.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I am really surprised that more people have not joined this discussion on such an important topic.

This particular sub forum on CF, Spirit-Filled discusses sin more than any other sub forum on here. Why then are we afraid to discuss the negative consequenes to the Kingdom of God by our most popular topics for posts?

I would have hoped all those who are into sin and condemnation would have spoken up to why they feel what they are doing is right. Or maybe they realize it is not? I don't know, but there not here to express their viewpoints which is making me wonder.

In their posts they share how they feel it is their 'ministry' and they are 'called by God' to preach such things. If it is God telling them that then why are they not adding to this discussion? Hmmmm.....

 

[ToBeLoved]

..

 

[Svt4Him]

I think it was your reference to lawelessness. How does that fit in to the OP? No one who feels so wracked with guilt over sin is practicing lawlessness. That is what I am talking about. The guilt of sin. Christians not being able to forgive themselves even after Jesus has forgiven them. Their feelings of failure, inadequacies in Christ. Finding no power in the Holy Spirit and our faith in general to be overcomer's. This is what legalism promotes and the reprocussions in many people's lives.

As I said, lawlessness and legalism are different sides to the same coin. The way to overcome sin is not to ignore it under the guise of grace, it's to fear God and trust in what Jesus did. The fear of God keeps one from sin, and when we remove any consequence of sin in our lives, we lose that fear. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and in it is peace and joy. Fear God, and one doesn't worry about sin, they don't want a part of it.

 

[ToBeLoved]

As I said, lawlessness and legalism are different sides to the same coin. The way to overcome sin is not to ignore it under the guise of grace, it's to fear God and trust in what Jesus did. The fear of God keeps one from sin, and when we remove any consequence of sin in our lives, we lose that fear. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and in it is peace and joy. Fear God, and one doesn't worry about sin, they don't want a part of it.

Ok. That's your opinion.

I think that when we wrack oursleves with guilt we are not doing God's will. Jesus has always set the standard of what we are to do by Him doing it first (loving us first, coming as a servant to serve, not as a king). When we repent, God is fair and just to forgive us our sins and cast them as far as the east is from the west. I believe that we are to do this for ourselves also. Forgive ourselves for our sins. as Jesus does. Guilt and shame do little for the kingdom of God. We become obsessed with ourselves and we are not loving to others when we do not love ourselves in a basic way.

The scenario and words in my OP showed a person overwhemed with little hope and someone who has already left the faith. The saddest part to me was that they felt relieved that they did not feel that guilt anymore. In this scenario, I don't think that lawlessness plays a part. Lack of hope is the main problem. Lack of hope in overcoming what Jesus already overcame for them.

Maybe I am just missing the point of what you are trying to say. I am very tired today. I'll come back and read again later.

 

[Svt4Him]

Haha, yup, my opinion, but also what the Bible says.

One who lives by the law is riddled with fear, that's what it produces. There is a difference between the fear of God and living under the law. Again, maybe my opinion, but also what the Bible says.

 

[Gideons300]

I am really surprised that more people have not joined this discussion on such an important topic.

This particular sub forum on CF, Spirit-Filled discusses sin more than any other sub forum on here. Why then are we afraid to discuss the negative consequenes to the Kingdom of God by our most popular topics for posts?

I would have hoped all those who are into sin and condemnation would have spoken up to why they feel what they are doing is right. Or maybe they realize it is not? I don't know, but there not here to express their viewpoints which is making me wonder.

In their posts they share how they feel it is their 'ministry' and they are 'called by God' to preach such things. If it is God telling them that then why are they not adding to this discussion? Hmmmm.....

If we are defining sin as character 'opportunities' for further growth, no one is beating up such a saint. I have said it before, if a brother or a sister is desiring to walk pleasing to God and has not yet found out how to walk in real victory, God encourages and so should we.

I have made it clear, and yet some try to ignore it, that the sin I speak of is willful disobedience. Are you seriously telling us that the reason they are leaving the church is because of talk of sin? The Bible tells us that in the last days, because sin shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. Note that we are not told that it is the talk about sin that will cool off the heart, but sin itself.

So here is a dilemma, if we are to believe what you are saying. Suppose a drug addict gets saved, and begins his walk with God. Satan leaves him alone for a while, but he attacks again, the urge returns, and the man falls back into his addiction. Are you going to say to him "Hey, don't give it a second thought. You are holy just like you are."?

Why is the church in such a weakened condition? It is simply this. We are fighting a very experienced foe. We can act like we are not in a war, but it makes no difference. The war is being brought to us. We do not have to seek it out. Nor can we avoid it. God has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness, and supplied us armor for battle, a sharp two edged sword to fight off the lies of the enemy, and a shield of faith to quench all the arrows of satan. But what do we find in this late hour? Stacks and stacks of new shiny, unused armor, swords and shields stacked in the corner, as preachers tells us the battle is already won, so why fight? Why resist the enemy steadfast in the faith? Why give all diligence to make our calling and election sure? So we bite, for our ears are tickled, and our weakened state takes a further turn south.

Why do most leave the church? They are tired of the guilt, you bet. But it is not from the "sin preachers" as you call them, for most churches now are into the hyper grace movement where sin has no eternal ramifications. Why then are so many who love the light, who once came to the light, leaving the church? Simply because no one is instructing them HOW to get satan off their back, HOW to defeat the drug addiction, the porn issue, the pull of the world and what it tempts us with. We as the church are to train up new believers as to HOW to walk in holiness and righteousness, HOW to not sin willfully, HOW to be changed into His likeness by keeping our bodies under. Sadly, few voices have any real answers....yet.

When we get desperate enough to cry out, hating that part of us that willfully chooses to disobey God's clear will, God will awaken us to the amazing truth that THAT part of us? It is not us at all. It is us biting on the lie that we are really not dead at all, that we are really not new creatures at all, and that sin WILL have dominion over us, but 'Whew, we are forgiven no matter what? Right?" Wrong, and the error must be confronted and the unbelief repented of. Some will listen, some will not. The valley of decision faces all of us, but I know this much. Every kernel of wheat WILL awake, put on their armor and do exploits, things now we cannot even conceive. The church is about to rise up from the ashes of religious effort, and go out with a glorious bang. The world, once turned upside down by God's believing children, is about to experience deja vu. Glory to God!

Blessings, sister

Gids

 

[Blade]

If its victor you wish to say then "it is written" is the only way to help. We know that sin was taken care of on the Cross. We know John 3:16 Rom 10:9-10 we are saved. The price has been paid. Christ can not die again. As our brother Paul by GOD said.. does this mean we can sin all we want? God forbid. SOME seem to think that SIN will ALWAYS be there and we will always have to bow to it to some degree. A truth yet not. We have been set free from sin. This sin that Jesus came to set those that are captive free from that and so much more.

So this SIN no longer has a hold on us. No you do not have to ever give in to any sin or temptation. If Jesus before He died on the Cross said.. "go and sin no more lest a worse thing come on you" that person did not have to sin. See no one controls you. You really dont have to lie or cheat or steal or do harm..ever. But its clearly written if we say we have no sin we deceive our sefls and the truth is not in us. For ME it HAS to be written..

I will put my self out there.. When I was young every Sunday I would go to that altar and cry and cry and cry because of how bad I new I was. This woman.. grandmother that prayed 4+ hours a day that had more power of GoD then anyone I know to this day.. came up crying because of how the enemy has lied to me. You think that alone would have been enough..haha. .no way. So with two kids.. reading one day in the margin it siad "if your heart convicts you..you wont recieve anything from God". I got up said I quit for my heart convicts me 24/7. So I reach for the door and that sweet voice of God asked me "what is righteousness?" I said ok ok as I turned Righteousness is right standing with God. He then asked me "how do you get righteousness?" I said by believing in God. I cried and cried and cried. It was like a dam broke and I could see.

I still went to the word to make sure this was written. Yet we CANNOT freely sin and love Him. The GOD of the OT is the GOD of the NT. He has not changed. We need to use ALL the word. To say "I know Him" but dont keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. Just because one says Jesus is lord died for the worlds sins is the only way to the Father..does make you saved. Jesus said.. if we LOVE HIM we keep His words period.

Lol with all that I know that my Father sees me not like I do. He sees me 100% pure and holy and I know He wonders why I dont. That is how it IS in heaven. So to know Christ.. you are free from sin. Sin from Adam that was.. eat of this tree you will die. To disobey God.. would be a sin.. for that sin as it is written.. the wages of sin is death. I believe no sin enters heaven yet we all sin. So for me.. I believe its knowing Jesus as lord period. This is what gets ANYONE in to heaven. Jesus is looking for ANYONE to go and tell people.. He will forgive you if you repent.. thats it..forever. Did you know no one has ever been blotted out of the LAMBS book? Hmm.. no I am NOT once saved always or am I the flip side of that. I never had to wanted to. Jesus is real.. so real no matter what you do.. just confess repent and try not to do it again. If you fall He picks you up over and over.. but to freely sin..for this you are playing with God..