Are you a member of the Elect?

AndOne · Sep 3, 2005

Cary.Melvin said:
This is the historical view of St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas (and hence the Augustinian and the Thomist Catholics).

Prove it.

Show me where Augustine says that you can be predestined to grace but not salvation.

Globalnomad · Sep 3, 2005

So what you are saying is : if anyone ends up among the damned, then no matter how convinced he was that he was "in Christ", he really wasn't.

Then I don't see the point of anyone ever saying that they are certain of eternal life. Any of us could be among those who are just kidding themselves, those whom Christ will disacknowledge.. There is no way for us to know in advance; the truth will only be known at the Last Judgement.

So, what is the meaning of saying "I am saved"?

cygnusx1 · Sep 3, 2005

Behe's Boy said:
Prove it.

Show me where Augustine says that you can be predestined to grace but not salvation.

Augustine, beautifully explaining these words to the people (Augustine on John, tract. 95), has spoken as follows: "That is, he has been irrevocably destined to the judgment of eternal fire." Likewise concerning the reprobate, the same is true: "Who then believeth not is already judged" (John 3:18), that is (as the aforesaid author explains), (tract. xii), already is damned: "Not that judgment now is manifest, but that judgment is already wrought." Likewise explaining these words of John the Baptist: man has received" (John 3:32), he speaks in this wise (tract. xiv): is a certain people prepared to wrath by God, damned with the Devil." "Those dead scorners, predestinated to eternal death." Again (tract. xlviii): "Why did the Lord say to the Jews: (John 10:26), "Ye believe not because ye are not of my sheep" (John 10:26), unless he saw that they were predestinated to everlasting destruction and not to life eternal by the price of his own blood." Also, explaining these words of the Lord (ibid): "My sheep hear my voice and I know hem and they follow me and I give to them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand: My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of my Fathers ahnd" (John 10:27-29), and he says this: "Wht can the wolf do? What can the thief and robber do? They destroy none, except those predestined to destruction." Speaking in like manner concerning the two worlds (tract. lxxxvii) he says: "The whole world is the church, and the whole world hates the church; the world, therefore, hates the world, the hostile that which is reconciled, the damned that which is saved, the polluted that which is cleansed." Likewise (tract. cx) he says: "There is a world concerning which the Apostle says: that we should be condemned with this world (1 Cor 11:32). For that world that the Lord does not pray, for he certainly cannot ignore that for which it is predestinated." Likewise (tract cvii): "Judas the betrayer of Christ is called the son of perdition as the one predestinated to be the betrayer." Likewise in Enchiridion (cap. 100): "To their damnation whom he has justly predestinated to punishment." Likewise in the book On Mans Perfection in Righteousness he says (cap. 13): This good, which is required, there is not anyone who does it, not even one; but this refers to that class of men who have been predestinated to destruction: indeed, upon those the foreknowledge of God looks down and pronounces sentence." Likewise in the books de Civitate Dei (lib. xxii, c. 24): " Which is given to those who hae been predestinated to death." Likewise blessed Gregory the Pope (Moral. lib. xxxiv, c.2): "Leviathan with all his members has been cut off for eternal torment." Likewise holy Fulgentius in the third book Concerning the Truth of Predestination and Grace (lib. iii, c. 5) says: "God has prepared punishment for those sinners (at least) who have been justly predestinated to the suffering of punishment." And blessed Fulgentius has composed one whole book for his friend Monimus concerning this tantamount question, that is: Concerning the Predestination of the Reprobate to Destruction, (lib. i).

http://public.csusm.edu/public/guests/rsclark/brevior.htm

If you would like more , just let me know!

Cary.Melvin · Sep 3, 2005

From St. Thomas Aquinas'
Summa Theologica
First Part of the Second Part
Article 109
Question 10

Whether man possessed of grace needs the help of grace in order to persevere?

Objection 1. It would seem that man possessed of grace needs no help to persevere. For perseverance is something less than virtue, even as continence is, as is clear from the Philosopher (Ethic. vii, 7,9). Now since man is justified by grace, he needs no further help of grace in order to have the virtues. Much less, therefore, does he need the help of grace to have perseverance.

Objection 2. Further, all the virtues are infused at once. But perseverance is put down as a virtue. Hence it seems that, together with grace, perseverance is given to the other infused virtues.

Objection 3. Further, as the Apostle says (Rm. 5:20) more was restored to man by Christ's gift, than he had lost by Adam's sin. But Adam received what enabled him to persevere; and thus man does not need grace in order to persevere.

On the contrary, Augustine says (De Persev. ii): "Why is perseverance besought of God, if it is not bestowed by God? For is it not a mocking request to seek what we know He does not give, and what is in our power without His giving it?" Now perseverance is besought by even those who are hallowed by grace; and this is seen, when we say "Hallowed be Thy name," which Augustine confirms by the words of Cyprian (De Correp. et Grat. xii). Hence man, even when possessed of grace, needs perseverance to be given to him by God.

I answer that, Perseverance is taken in three ways. First, to signify a habit of the mind whereby a man stands steadfastly, lest he be moved by the assault of sadness from what is virtuous. And thus perseverance is to sadness as continence is to concupiscence and pleasure, as the Philosopher says (Ethic. vii, 7). Secondly, perseverance may be called a habit, whereby a man has the purpose of persevering in good unto the end. And in both these ways perseverance is infused together with grace, even as continence and the other virtues are. Thirdly, perseverance is called the abiding in good to the end of life. And in order to have this perseverance man does not, indeed, need another habitual grace, but he needs the Divine assistance guiding and guarding him against the attacks of the passions, as appears from the preceding article. And hence after anyone has been justified by grace, he still needs to beseech God for the aforesaid gift of perseverance, that he may be kept from evil till the end of his life. For to many grace is given to whom perseverance in grace is not given.

Reply to Objection 1. This objection regards the first mode of perseverance, as the second objection regards the second.

Hence the solution of the second objection is clear. Reply to Objection 3. As Augustine says (De Natura et Gratia xliii) [Cf. De Correp. et Grat. xii]: "in the original state man received a gift whereby he could persevere, but to persevere was not given him. But now, by the grace of Christ, many receive both the gift of grace whereby they may persevere, and the further gift of persevering," and thus Christ's gift is greater than Adam's fault. Nevertheless it was easier for man to persevere, with the gift of grace in the state of innocence in which the flesh was not rebellious against the spirit, than it is now. For the restoration by Christ's grace, although it is already begun in the mind, is not yet completed in the flesh, as it will be in heaven, where man will not merely be able to persevere but will be unable to sin.

Cary.Melvin · Sep 3, 2005

Behe's Boy said:
Prove it.

Show me where Augustine says that you can be predestined to grace but not salvation.

From St. Augustine's Book
The Gift of Perseverance (Writen 2 years before his death)
Chapter 21

Therefore, of two infants, equally bound by original sin, why the one is taken and the other left; and of two wicked men of already mature years, why this one should be so called as to follow Him that calleth, while that one is either not called at all, or is not called in such a manner,--the judgments of God are unsearchable. But of two pious men, why to the one should be given perseverance unto the end, and to the other it should not be given, God's judgments are even more unsearchable. Yet to believers it ought to be a most certain fact that the former is of the predestinated, the latter is not. "For if they had been of us," says one of the predestinated, who had drunk this secret from the breast of the Lord, "certainly they would have continued with us." What, I ask, is the meaning of, "They were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would certainly have continued with us"? Were not both created by God--both born of Adam--both made from the earth, and given from Him who said, "I have created all breath," souls of one and the same nature? Lastly, had not both been called, and followed Him that called them? and had not both become, from wicked men, justified men, and both been renewed by the layer of regeneration? (Both true Christians) But if he were to hear this who beyond all doubt knew what he was saying, he might answer and say: These things are true. In respect of all these things, they were of us. Nevertheless, in respect of a certain other distinction, they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they certainly would have continued with us. What then is this distinction? God's books lie open, let us not turn away our view; the divine Scripture cries aloud, let us give it a hearing. They were not of them, because they had not been "called according to the purpose;" they had not been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world; they had not gained a lot in Him; they had not been predestinated according to His purpose who worketh all things. For if they had been this, they would have been of them, and without doubt they would have continued with them.

On a Side note, Behe's Boy, Is there any particular reason your avatar is the Florida State University Seminole?

AndOne · Sep 3, 2005

Ah excuse me and please pardon my frustration here - but I asked for something from Augustine that specifically states that you can be predestined to grace but not salvation. The sources you and cygnus provide do not support this particular view - that grace and salvation are somehow two seperate entities. I believe that Augustine taught double predestination - as the sources confirm - but he did not teach that it was possible to be predestined to grace but not salvation. My point is that the statement that was made earlier - that you can be predestined to grace but not to salvation - is ludicrous. You're either of the elect or you aren't. This double talk going on here is nothing more than an effort to teach semi-pelageous, works-based salvation.

Augustine is simply saying here - in a nutshell - that if you fall away - you were never saved to begin with. That is not the same thing as saying you have been given grace but not salvation. Grace is salvation. By interepreting the text as you do - you are implying that Augistine was saying that we have to earn salvation. That is how I am taking your posts.

As to the FSU avatar - well could it be possiblly, that just maybe I like the noles....? Why else would it be there...? It is not there because of the NCAA controversy and the Indian names....

reformedfan · Sep 3, 2005

Augustine was a double predestinarian, & interestingly, so is God. Kewl, huh?

Cary.Melvin · Sep 3, 2005

Behe's Boy said:
As to the FSU avatar - well could it be possiblly, that just maybe I like the noles....? Why else would it be there...? It is not there because of the NCAA controversy and the Indian names....

It is just that my wife and I both went to the University of Florida (the in-state rivals of the Florida State University). However, my mother did go to Florida State and most of my family are Florida State Fans.

AndOne · Sep 3, 2005

Cary.Melvin said:
It is just that my wife and I both went to the University of Florida (the in-state rivals of the Florida State University). However, my mother did go to Florida State and most of my family are Florida State Fans.

Well - saying you can be predestined to grace but not salvation is analogous to saying you go to UF but attend college in Tallahasse...

cygnusx1 · Sep 3, 2005

Behe's Boy said:
Ah excuse me and please pardon my frustration here - but I asked for something from Augustine that specifically states that you can be predestined to grace but not salvation. The sources you and cygnus provide do not support this particular view - that grace and salvation are somehow two seperate entities. I believe that Augustine taught double predestination - as the sources confirm - but he did not teach that it was possible to be predestined to grace but not salvation. My point is that the statement that was made earlier - that you can be predestined to grace but not to salvation - is ludicrous. You're either of the elect or you aren't. This double talk going on here is nothing more than an effort to teach semi-pelageous, works-based salvation.

Click to expand...

sorry Behe's Boy , I misunderstood your question ........... it looked like you were saying Augustine was a single predestinarian , I have heared that so many times , you know , that Calvin and Augustine were poles apart .......

I now see what you were getting at !

AndOne · Sep 4, 2005

No prob Cyg - I figured you misunderstood what I was getting at - but didn't want to speak for you...

It's funny that some people think Calvin and Augustine were poles apart when you think about it - especially consdering Calvin seems to quote Augustine more than anyone else in his writings. Although - I am going through Calvin's Commentaries now - and he is quick to point out areas that he does disagree with Augustine on - but its nothing in matters of faith/grace however...

cygnusx1 · Sep 4, 2005

Behe's Boy said:
No prob Cyg - I figured you misunderstood what I was getting at - but didn't want to speak for you...

It's funny that some people think Calvin and Augustine were poles apart when you think about it - especially consdering Calvin seems to quote Augustine more than anyone else in his writings. Although - I am going through Calvin's Commentaries now - and he is quick to point out areas that he does disagree with Augustine on - but its nothing in matters of faith/grace however...

cool!
the biggest fallacy I have seen on CF (I have seen it a number of times) is that Augustine wasn't Calvinistic !
I tell you when I started posting Augustine on double predestination someone moved (and buried) my thread !!!!

5solas · Sep 6, 2005

Globalnomad said:
There is no way for us to know in advance; the truth will only be known at the Last Judgement.

So, what is the meaning of saying "I am saved"?

of course there is a way to know it:

Rom 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Rom 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!"

Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

1Jo 3:1 See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

Are you a member of the Elect?

Are you a member of the Elect?

Yes, I am one of God's elect people.

No, I am one of the reprobate.

I don't know.

Deliver me oh Lord, from evil men

Senior Veteran

Jacob the twister.....

Roman Orthodox

Roman Orthodox

Deliver me oh Lord, from evil men

Senior Veteran

Roman Orthodox

Deliver me oh Lord, from evil men

Jacob the twister.....

Deliver me oh Lord, from evil men

Jacob the twister.....

Ephesians 2:8.9

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