Are you a member of the Elect?

cygnusx1 · Sep 2, 2005

to rejoice at Spiritual gifts is the one area that men generally excell in ....... (particularly our Pentecostal brethren) yet how many rejoice in the fact that their names are written in heaven!

The disciples were overjoyed when they returned from a ministry trip, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name" (Luke 10:17). Yet Jesus commanded them to rejoice in something much more important: "Do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven"

JJB · Sep 2, 2005

Yes. Hallellujah! Thanks be to God, Amen.

Cary.Melvin · Sep 2, 2005

reformedfan said:
so salvation only lasts some people part of their lifetime, then? Christ's blood is a pretty inconsequential thing, with sinners able to declare to God "Hey, change your mind about me, Dude, thanx anyway!" & God honors it & obeys the sinner? yeah, that's pretty funny.

God is soverign. can not he elect some people to experience grace for a time (Election to Grace), but not elect them to salvation (Election to Glory) according to his divine plan?

cygnusx1 · Sep 2, 2005

Cary.Melvin said:
God is soverign. can not he elect some people to experience grace for a time (Election to Grace), but not elect them to salvation (Election to Glory) according to his divine plan?

sure ........ Grace is active kindness unmerited and granted to even those who are not elect ......see Hebrews 6

some Calvinists's deny "common Grace" , I can't help that.

Cary.Melvin · Sep 2, 2005

cygnusx1 said:
sure ........ Grace is active kindness unmerited and granted to even those who are not elect ......see Hebrews 6

some Calvinists's deny "common Grace" , I can't help that.

I see.

cygnusx1, I have noticed that you have not yet voted. Are you not sure if God has elected you to glory?

Imblessed · Sep 2, 2005

Cary.Melvin said:
God is soverign. can not he elect some people to experience grace for a time (Election to Grace), but not elect them to salvation (Election to Glory) according to his divine plan?

Common Grace abounds... Does not the sun shine on the wicked and holy alike? Are there not many many people out there leading what this world would call a great wonderful life, full of blessings and joy, and yet do not have faith in Jesus? Sure...I think pretty much everyone on earth is "elected to grace"---at least a "type" of grace.

What does Election to Grace mean to you, CaryMelvin? Maybe you should define that before you ask the question. It seems to me that your def. of Election to Grace is that God teases some with the the knowledge and belief of salvation, but then pulls the rug out from under them at some time. I could be wrong, though......

reformedfan · Sep 2, 2005

Cary.Melvin said:
God is soverign. can not he elect some people to experience grace for a time (Election to Grace), but not elect them to salvation (Election to Glory) according to his divine plan?

but the term "elect" implies foreordained to eternal life. God bestows common grace on all, not to those He elects to shower it upon. Even Christ hating heathens can have happy families that love them & a nice doggy that rescues his kids from a burning building, etc. It's not that God has elected them to grace for wa while, but that He is so good & merciful & patient to all, including the reprobate.

If you are now going to expand the use of the term "election" to mean "anything good that happens to anyone", then i guess every single person on the face of the planet is elect, at some tiome or other. However, this is not how the Bible uses the word, ya trend setter, ya

Cary.Melvin · Sep 2, 2005

Imblessed said:
What does Election to Grace mean to you, CaryMelvin? Maybe you should define that before you ask the question. It seems to me that your def. of Election to Grace is that God teases some with the the knowledge and belief of salvation, but then pulls the rug out from under them at some time. I could be wrong, though......

People that are elected (or predestined) to grace only, are those who enter the graces of the Christian life (a belief and faith in Christ, knowlege of salvation, ect.), but do not persevere because they were not elected (or predestined) to glory.

Imblessed · Sep 2, 2005

Cary.Melvin said:
People that are elected (or predestined) to grace only, are those who enter the graces of the Christian life (a belief and faith in Christ, knowlege of salvation, ect.), but do not persevere because they were not elected (or predestined) to glory.

sounds like a nicer way of saying what I said.....kind of like God dangling a carrot......

would you say these people who entered the graces of the christian life(belief, faith in Christ, knowledge of salvation, etc...) were true christians? Who really did have faith in Jesus?

Or would you say that they were "following the crowd" so to speak, or were maybe raised in the faith but never truly 'accepted' it?

CCWoody · Sep 2, 2005

Cary.Melvin said:
People that are elected (or predestined) to grace only, are those who enter the graces of the Christian life (a belief and faith in Christ, knowlege of salvation, ect.), but do not persevere because they were not elected (or predestined) to glory.

I prefer the Biblical terms chaff, tare, self-deceived reprobate, dogs, pigs, etc. who return to their wallowing and/ or own vomit to describe these people (see 2 Peter 2:22 and the whole chapter really). It does clear up confusion with using the term Elect, which is ONLY used as a term of endearment and comfort to the saints in the Bible.

This, BTW, is also a complaint that some Calvinists have with the use of the word grace to describe the sun shining on everyone. It is not that they don't believe in common grace, they simply prefer to reserve the term for something salvific and not that which serves to further the treasuring up of their own well deserving wrath of God by those who refuse to be thankful.

Cary.Melvin · Sep 2, 2005

Imblessed said:
sounds like a nicer way of saying what I said.....kind of like God dangling a carrot......

would you say these people who entered the graces of the christian life(belief, faith in Christ, knowledge of salvation, etc...) were true christians? Who really did have faith in Jesus?

Or would you say that they were "following the crowd" so to speak, or were maybe raised in the faith but never truly 'accepted' it?

Yes, those who are elected (or predestined) to grace only, are "true" Christians and have a real faith in Jesus (need grace to do that).

People that "follow the crowd" or who never have accepted Christ, never had grace to begin with.

CCWoody · Sep 2, 2005

Cary.Melvin said:
Yes, those who are elected (or predestined) to grace only, are "true" Christians and have a real faith in Jesus (need grace to do that).

People that "follow the crowd" or who never have accepted Christ, never had grace to begin with.

We call them goats, too. And, the Lord Jesus even called them Satan's spawn. (That doesn't sound very nice to me.)

Oh, and the Hebrews writer called them b*******. (Yep, that is the word in my Bible.)

After reading all those mean names you might get the idea that there isn't a whole lot of love lost there.

Imblessed · Sep 2, 2005

Cary.Melvin said:
Yes, those who are elected (or predestined) to grace only, are "true" Christians and have a real faith in Jesus (need grace to do that).

People that "follow the crowd" or who never have accepted Christ, never had grace to begin with.

So in your opinion God does dangle the carrot?? Lets people think they are saved and then lets them fall?

PapaLandShark · Sep 2, 2005

Cary.Melvin said:
Yes, those who are elected (or predestined) to grace only, are "true" Christians and have a real faith in Jesus (need grace to do that).

And...?

Your arguement seems to be that we cannot know. And yet the Bible tells us how we know. Where then is the error?

Do you honestly think that God could loose even one He has saved? Or would for any reason?

Cary.Melvin · Sep 3, 2005

Imblessed said:
So in your opinion God does dangle the carrot?? Lets people think they are saved and then lets them fall?

If God has predestined you to grace (election to grace), but not for full and final salvation (election to glory), yes.

AndOne · Sep 3, 2005

Cary.Melvin said:
If God has predestined you to grace (election to grace), but not for full and final salvation (election to glory), yes.

This is quite contradictory - and this one sentence shows the error and mistakes of all semi-pelagion, works-based theologies. How can you be predestined to grace and not for salvation? This makes no sense and is like saying a red apple isn't red. What is grace if it doesn't result in salvation? Nothing.

Cary.Melvin · Sep 3, 2005

PapaLandShark said:
And...?

Your arguement seems to be that we cannot know. And yet the Bible tells us how we know. Where then is the error?

Well, we can know if we have been predestined to grace by the very fact that we have faith in Jesus. However, you can not know if you are predestined to glory because you can not see into the future.

PapaLandShark said:
Do you honestly think that God could loose even one He has saved? Or would for any reason?

If His soverign will desires it for His divine plan, Yes.

Imblessed · Sep 3, 2005

Cary.Melvin said:
If God has predestined you to grace (election to grace), but not for full and final salvation (election to glory), yes.

well

I have honestly not heard this theory before. Is it a normal Catholic thought? Or are you trying to justify the accounts of christians who have become athiests and other stories of people falling from the faith?

I admit it's difficult to comprehend when you hear of people (i've heard this on CF) that say they were pastors or strong christians who are now athiests; but I can guarentee that the theory that God would actually predestine some to "true christianity" for a short time but not salvation is, well,

Cary.Melvin · Sep 3, 2005

Imblessed said:
well

I have honestly not heard this theory before. Is it a normal Catholic thought?

This is the historical view of St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas (and hence the Augustinian and the Thomist Catholics).

Imblessed · Sep 3, 2005

Cary.Melvin said:
This is the historical view of St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas (and hence the Augustinian and the Thomist Catholics).

I see. Thanks. Upon further thought, I'm guessing that our views may not be quite so opposite as I thought. I was thinking how there are surely people out there who have convinced themselves they've earned their way into heaven(I think of the verses where they say Jesus Jesus and He says I NEVER knew you). Since God is truly Sovereign over all, there must be a plan as to why He allows this. I don't think they were what you call "true christians", but "self-decieved christians" I can agree with.

I guess what I'm trying to say.....gulp......is maybe you have a point---but I don't like how you explain it, or describe it.

Oh, man, that was hard.........(I'm going to go hide in shame now......)

(mainly to avoid the other Calvinists on here......I can see them pointing and whispering.........)

Are you a member of the Elect?

Are you a member of the Elect?

Yes, I am one of God's elect people.

No, I am one of the reprobate.

I don't know.

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