Are you a dictator?

vajradhara · Oct 27, 2005

Electra said:
But do you not believe people should be able to critisise and express their opinion?

Not allowing people to express their opinion or critisise what they feel need critisisng are the very characteristiscs of dictatorship.

isn't that fascism?

metta,

~v

MahaSudarshanChakra · Oct 27, 2005

Bookofknowledge said:
do you expect Muslims to not get angry when people say things to our Prophet Muhammad (SAW)? do you think muslims are not human enough that they don't have the rights to get angry?

First practice what you preach.

Dont you think others need to be very angry when Islam divides humanity into two. Reduces non muslims to second class citizens. The list never ends.

Now tell me what you think of Hindu saints? If you call them Satans or agents of Satan, then how does it bother you what I call Muhammed? Muhammed may be prophet for muslims, but the whole world knows what he did.

talitha · Oct 27, 2005

Bookofknowledge said:
I agree with you that people should exercise some self control but are you the one who sets the limits or perhaps do you always know for sure that the person who is reading certain limit of self control?

I'm not sure I can answer your question; I don't understand the part I put in bold.

The mind of Christ? who has the mind of Christ and what about the rest of humans do they not have the rights to get angry?

In my personal opinion? no. And I don't either, unless I am angry at the right thing. My Bible says, "BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN;" a literal translation from the Greek might read "Be angry, and do not let your anger miss its mark." That's only possible in Christ, in my own humbly Bible-influenced opinion .

blessings
tal

tel0004 · Oct 27, 2005

Bookofknowledge said:
A false Prophet doesn't and cann't call towards righteousness and peace? do you agree with me?

Mohommed preached righteousness and peace? How is that? I found a comparison between Islam and Christianity. I would like to see some passages from the Koran about peace.

Mohammed was the prophet of war;
Christ is the Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6-7).

Mohammed's disciples killed for the faith;
Christ's disciples were killed for their faith (Acts 12:2; 2 Timothy 4:7).

Mohammed promoted persecution against the "infidels";
Christ forgave and converted the chief persecutor (1 Timothy 1:13-15).

Mohammed was the taker of life;
Christ was the giver of life (John 10:27-28).

Mohammed and his fellow warriors murdered thousands;
Christ murdered none but saved many (compare John 12:48).

Mohammed's method was COMPULSION;
Christ's aim was voluntary CONVERSION (Acts 3:19).

Mohammed practiced FORCE;
Christ preached FAITH (John 6:29,35).

Mohammed was a WARRIOR;
Christ is a DELIVERER (Col. 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:10).

Mohammed conquered his enemies with the sword;
Christ conquered his enemies with another kind of sword, the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God (Hebrews 4:12; Acts 2:37).

Mohammed said to the masses, "Convert or die!";
Christ said, "Believe and live!" (John 6:47; 11:25-26).

Mohammed was swift to shed blood (Romans 3:15-17);
Christ shed His own blood for the salvation of many (Ephesians 1:7).

Mohammed preached "Death to the infidels!";
Christ prayed "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34).

Mohammed declared a holy war (Jihad) against infidels;
Christ achieved a holy victory on Calvary's cross (Colossians 2:14-15) and His followers share in that victory (John 16:33).

Mohammed constrained people by conquest;
Christ constrained people by love (2 Corinthians 5:14).

Modern terrorists derive their inspiration from Mohammed and carry out their despicable atrocities in the name of his god;
Christians derive their inspiration from the One who said, "Blessed are the peacemakers" (Matthew 5:9).

Modern day disciples of Mohammed respond to the terrorist attacks by cheering in the streets;
Modern day disciples of Christ are deeply grieved at past atrocities carried out by those who were "Christians" in name only (the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, etc.).

Many Muslims are peaceful and peace-loving because they do not strictly follow the teachings of their founder;
Many Christians are peaceful and peace-loving because they do strictly follow the teachings of their Founder (Romans 12:17-21).

Muhammed said the Koran is authoritative only in Arabic, and only in his dialect;
The Bible is authoritative in many languages around the world, for God knows all things and can inspire His Word in more than one language.

Muhammed hated music;
Jesus and His disciples sang hymns, and the Apostle commanded the Lord's Church to sing. (Matthew 26:30, Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16)

Muhammed allowed that a Mullah, Imam, or Mufti of Islam can be a terrorist and moral animal like Osama bin Laden;
The Bible requires that a leader in the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ must be above reproach, and when this is not true, Christians demand such a fallen leader be removed from leadership. (1 Timothy 3:1-7, 5:19-20)

Islam calls on its followers to observe Five Pillars, while all other aspects of life can be vulgar and not affect the Muslim's prospects in Paradise.
The Bible calls on the Christian to submit to the total change of his life by the Spirit of God-- NO area of life and thought is the choice of the follower. (Romans 12:1-2)

The Muslim looks forward to eternity in Paradise where there will be virgins who are used for eternal perpetual copulation.
The Bible believing Christian looks forward to being with Jesus Christ and is delighted with that. (2 Corinthians 5:8)

Muhammed said the witness of a woman was half the value of the witness of a man; and Muhammed said a women goes to Paradise because she satisfies her husband sexually;
The Bible teaches that a husband is to love his wife and be willing to die for her. (Ephesians 5:25)

Mohammed called upon his servants to fight;
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world; if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight . . .but now is My kingdom not from here" (John 18:36)

Mohammed ordered death to the Jews (see A.Guillaume, The Life of Muhammad, Oxford University Press [1975], p. 369);
Christ ordered that the gospel be preached "to the Jew first" (Romans 1:16).

The Koran says, "Fight in the cause of Allah" (Qu'ran 2.244);
The Bible says, "we wrestle not against flesh and blood" and "the weapons of our warfare are not carnal" (Ephesians 6:12; 2 Corinthians 10:4).

The Koran says, "Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them" (Qu'ran 9.5);
Christ said, "Preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15).

The Koran says, "I will inspire terror into the hearts of unbelievers" (Qu'ran 8.12);
God inspires His terror into the hearts of believers (Isaiah 8:13).

The Koran (Qu'ran) is a terrorist manual which condones fighting, conflict, terror, slaughter, and genocide against those who do not accept Islam;
T he Bible is a missionary manual to spread the gospel of peace to all the world (Romans 10:15).

Mohammed's Mission was to conquer the world for Allah;
Christ's mission was to conquer sin's penalty and power by substitutionary atonement (2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 3:18).

Mohammed considered Christ a good prophet;
Christ pronounced Mohammed to be a false prophet (John 10:10; Matthew 24:11).

Mohammed claimed that there was but one God, Allah;
Christ claimed that He was God (John 10:30-31; John 8:58-59; John 5:18; John 14:9).

Islam is geocentric, that is, the whole universe is centered on the Kaaba in the Grand mosque in Mecca in Arabia, and all Muslims pray facing that direction;
Jesus Christ is the center of all Christian worship and fellowship, for He is "in the midst" where his saints meet anywhere on earth. (Matthew 18:20, John 4:22-23)

Mohammed's Tomb: OCCUPIED!
Christ's tomb: EMPTY!

Electra · Oct 27, 2005

vajradhara said:
isn't that fascism?

metta,

~v

It is indeed.

Deffinition of Fascism -

Nationalist, mass mobilising, anti-Marxist political movement, usually headed by a single charismac party leader in a conquest of complete power through a single party system.

All the qualities of dictatorship.

Bookofknowledge · Oct 27, 2005

Talcara said:
With all due respect, how does paying out Muhammad (for his marriage to a child - which I believe is pretty sick, IMHO) equal a "dictator"? They are just expressing an opinion - often supported by the evidence. A dictator can be an authoritarian: a person who behaves in an tyrannical manner. In other words, they are oppresive and give out such comments in an unjust severity or arbitary behaviour. They allow no opposition. Does this sound like Christian Forums? No, the non-Islamic users express an opinion and you refute their opinion and then they try to refute yours and on it goes until the both of you just get bored of saying the same thing over and over again. This is called a "dicsussion".

Paying out Muhammad may be mean in some circumstances, but that doesn't make them dictators. If they mistakingly believe something which is false, then it is called "ignorance" - not dicatorship. When you call your siblings mean names or tell lies to them, are you a dictator? There is no difference.

During engaging in discussions with people, I respect my opponents, but I may not respect their beliefs. That said, I generally try not to attack the beliefs except from the evidence.

Bye for now,
Talcara.

common between a dictator and some CF User is "They don't listen, they don't take heed, they don't take advice" thus falling under the category of dictatorship. It can not be called ignorance when one object and the other person explains because the person who has explained gives information to the one who has objected and I believe that the one who has been given or have information can not be called ignorant of knowledge.

Yes I am being dictator if i call my siblings mean names or tell lies to them because Qur'aan is very clear on calling nicknames and telling lies...

49:11
O believers! Let no men laugh at other men who may perhaps be better than themselves; and let no woman laugh at another woman, who may perhaps be better than herself. Do not defame through sarcastic remarks about one another, nor call one another by offensive nicknames. It is an evil thing to be called by a bad name after being a believer, and those who do not repent are the ones who are the wrongdoers.

3:61
If anyone disputes with you concerning this matter (the birth of Jesus) after full knowledge has come to you, say: "Come! Let us gather our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves: then let us earnestly pray and invoke the curse of Allah on the liars."

Bookofknowledge · Oct 27, 2005

Electra said:
But do you not believe people should be able to critisise and express their opinion?

Not allowing people to express their opinion or critisise what they feel need critisisng are the very characteristiscs of dictatorship.

Mankind always had and will have their limits once anyone cross them and does something it's not the virtues of goodness.

You are welcome to critisise but you are not allowed to go outside the boundries of what was allowed or said and done within a given time frame by the community at large or a nation.

almumina · Oct 27, 2005

Bevlina said:
With all due respect, don't you think Christians become a little angry when Jesus is reduced to a prophet and when it is said the Bible is corrupted? When it is said Jesus was not crucified? We have to look at things from a blanced perspective.

Hi Belvina..

We love Jesus (pbuh) as much as you do, when we call him a prophet , we dont mean it to irrispect jesus. Its what we believe. But we dont go around calling him names like other call our prophet names. It's ok to debate religion, but "some" here just dont respect others beliefs, like calling muhammda(saw) satan and other names, and calling Allah "the devil" , and start namecalling the quran also. Its not like we want people to agree with mulsims, or believe in the quran, we just are asking for at least some respect in the debates without "evil" name calling. Even If I wasnt muslim and didnt believe in jesus , I still wouldnt be calling him satan and other irrespectful names.

Peace .

Bookofknowledge · Oct 27, 2005

Bevlina said:
With all due respect, don't you think Christians become a little angry when Jesus is reduced to a prophet and when it is said the Bible is corrupted? When it is said Jesus was not crucified? We have to look at things from a blanced perspective.

Muslims do not descriminate any of the Prophets. We Love Jesus (AS) no more then and no less then any other Prophet ever sent by God. If you want more from us then you should know we do have the rights to descriminate against any Prophet.

You cann't deny the fact that God has sent Prophets after people have gone astray from what was said and done by the previous Prophet. You cann't deny the fact that Jesus (AS) is among the desendents of faithful believers (Abraham, Issac...) none of them ever claimed God Himself will be born among their desendents and neither did Musa (AS) was informed of such thing as God Himself will walk the earth after him.

God has never abandoned the believers - you cann't deny the fact that how God saved the people of Musa (AS) from Pharoah. you cann't deny the fact that God is Just and He will not punish a single soul more then what he/she deserve. It's unjust for a father to ask of his son to die inorder to forgive the sins of others. My God is not unjust and He is far above the need of having a son, none is equal to Him.

17:111
and say: "Praise be to Allah, the One Who has begotten no son and Who has no partner in His Kingdom; nor He is helpless to need a protector, and glorify His greatness in the best possible way."

You cann't view everything in balance perspective when it comes to your faith because God said "Believe in Me" and Abraham said "We believe My Lord"

3:95
Say: "Allah has declared the truth. If you are sincere then follow the faith of Ibrahim (Abraham); he was upright and not a mushrik."

Bookofknowledge · Oct 27, 2005

MahaSudarshanChakra said:
First practice what you preach.

Dont you think others need to be very angry when Islam divides humanity into two. Reduces non muslims to second class citizens. The list never ends.

Now tell me what you think of Hindu saints? If you call them Satans or agents of Satan, then how does it bother you what I call Muhammed? Muhammed may be prophet for muslims, but the whole world knows what he did.

I am not here to talk about Hindu saints if you want to talk about what I believe with regards to hindu saints please create a new thread.

Muslims evolved by uniting the tribes who disputed and were murdering the clang members within arabia hence you cann't say Islam divides humanity without understanding.

Bookofknowledge · Oct 27, 2005

talitha said:
I'm not sure I can answer your question; I don't understand the part I put in bold.

Pardon me for my limited ability of explaining things in english, some times I read my own words and it doesn't make sense to me either

I was trying to say that not every person is equal hence not every person has the same ability of self control. what I understood by your response is that - you expect every one to have the same default ability of self control - is it true?

talitha said:
In my personal opinion? no. And I don't either, unless I am angry at the right thing. My Bible says, "BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN;" a literal translation from the Greek might read "Be angry, and do not let your anger miss its mark." That's only possible in Christ, in my own humbly Bible-influenced opinion

7:150
When Musa came back to his people, he was extremely angry and sorrowful, and he said: "What an evil thing you have done in my place in my absence! Have you tried to hasten the retribution of your Rabb?" He put down the Holy Tablets and seized his brother by the hair of his head and dragged him closer. Haroon (Aaron) cried: "O son of my mother! The people overpowered me and almost killed me; do not make my enemies happy over me and do not count me among the wrongdoers."

7:151
At this Musa said: "O Rabb! Forgive me and my brother! And admit us to Your mercy, for You are the Most Merciful of all."

42:35
Those who dispute about Our revelations should know that there is no escape for them.

42:36
Whatever you are given is nothing but a provision for the transitory life of this world, better and ever lasting is the reward which Allah has for those who believe, put their trust in their Rabb,

42:37
avoid major sins and shameful deeds, forgive even when they are angry;

42:38
answer the call of their Rabb, establish Salah, conduct their affairs with mutual consultation, spend out of the sustenance which We have given them,

42:39
and when they are oppressed, help and defend themselves.

42:40
The recompense for an injury is an injury proportionate to it; but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation he shall be rewarded by Allah; He does not like the wrongdoers.

42:41
Those who avenge themselves when wronged cannot be blamed.

42:42
The blameworthy are those who oppress their fellow men and conduct themselves with wickedness and injustice in the land. It is they who will have painful punishment.

42:43
Those who endure with fortitude and forgive others, surely exhibit great courage in conducting their affairs.

vajradhara · Oct 27, 2005

Electra said:
It is indeed.

Deffinition of Fascism -

Nationalist, mass mobilising, anti-Marxist political movement, usually headed by a single charismac party leader in a conquest of complete power through a single party system.

All the qualities of dictatorship.

hmm.....

were i a more cynical being, i would say that this view represents a few religons that i'm aware of.... with some modifications, of course.

i must confess that i'm not all that fond of fascism or fascists, no matter what flavor they may come in.

metta,

~v

vajradhara · Oct 27, 2005

Bookofknowledge said:
I am not here to talk about Hindu saints if you want to talk about what I believe with regards to hindu saints please create a new thread.

Muslims evolved by uniting the tribes who disputed and were murdering the clang members within arabia hence you cann't say Islam divides humanity without understanding.

dhimmitude divides the Muslims from non-Muslims in Muslim dominated cultures. this is a pretty clear and marked division in beings.

metta,

~v

Bookofknowledge · Oct 27, 2005

tel0004 said:
Mohommed preached righteousness and peace? How is that? I found a comparison between Islam and Christianity. I would like to see some passages from the Koran about peace.

You found the comparison which was done by others. The entire Qur'aan is filled with solutions which preaches righteiousness and peace only if one understand.

14:52
This is a proclamation for mankind: let them take warning therefrom; let them know that He is the One and Only - worthy of worship - and let the men of understanding learn a lesson.

17:23
Your Rabb has decreed to you that: You shall worship none but Him, and you shall be kind to your parents; if one or both of them live to their old age in your lifetime, you shall not say to them any word of contempt nor repel them and you shall address them in kind words.

17:24
You shall lower to them your wings of humility and pray: "O Rabb! Bestow on them Your blessings just as they cherished me when I was a little child."

17:25
Your Rabb knows best what is in your hearts. If you do good deeds, certainly He is most forgiving to those who turn to Him in repentance.

17:26
You shall give to your relatives their due and to the needy and to the wayfarers. You shall not be a spendthrift

17:27
- as spendthrifts are the brethren of shaitan and shaitan is ever ungrateful to His Rabb.

17:28
You shall speak courteously to needy persons if you are waiting for your Rabb's bounty and you lack the means to assist them.

17:29
You shall neither tie your hands to your neck (be miserly) nor stretch them forth to their utmost reach (be prodigal), lest you sit back, blameworthy, destitute.

17:30
Surely your Rabb gives abundantly to whom He pleases and sparingly to whom He wills, for He is aware of the condition of His servants and observes them closely.

17:31
You shall not kill your children for fear of want, for it is We Who provide sustenance for them as well as for you; surely killing them is a great blunder.

17:32
You shall not commit adultery; surely it is a shameful deed and an evil way (opening the door to other evils).

17:33
You shall not kill anyone whom Allah has forbidden, except for just cause under the law. If anyone is killed unjustly, We have granted the right of retribution to his heir, but let him not carry his vengeance too far in killing the culprit through taking the law in his own hands, as he is supported by the law.

17:34
You shall not go near the property of an orphan, except with the good intention of improving it, until he attains his maturity. You shall fulfill your pledges; surely you shall be held accountable for your pledges.

17:35
You shall give full measure, when you measure, and weigh with even scale; this is the best way and will prove to be the best in the end.

17:36
You shall not follow anyone blindly in those matters of which you have no knowledge, surely the use of your ears and the eyes and the heart - all of these, shall be questioned on the Day of Judgement.

17:37
You shall not walk arrogantly on the earth, for you can neither rend the earth asunder nor attain the height of the mountains.

17:38
All these and their evil aspects are hateful in the sight of your Rabb.

17:39
This is but a part of the wisdom which your Rabb has revealed to you. Do not associate other deities as object of worship, lest you should be cast into hell, blameworthy rejected.

Bookofknowledge · Oct 27, 2005

vajradhara said:
dhimmitude divides the Muslims from non-Muslims in Muslim dominated cultures. this is a pretty clear and marked division in beings.

metta,

~v

What is the history of dhimmitude?

vajradhara · Oct 27, 2005

Bookofknowledge said:
What is the history of dhimmitude?

what do you mean? like, history of a particular country... something like that? or history of peoples which have had dhimmitude enforced upon them?

metta,

~v

Bookofknowledge · Oct 27, 2005

vajradhara said:
what do you mean? like, history of a particular country... something like that? or history of peoples which have had dhimmitude enforced upon them?

well you have introduced to me the word "dhimmitude" so I am giving you free will to speak of what you know about the history - doesn't matter it's the country you choose or the people who have had "enforced" upon them? because I am going to investigate whatever you say based on your loyalty towards the information you present.

NOTW · Oct 27, 2005

Bookofknowledge said:
do you expect Muslims to not get angry when people say things to our Prophet Muhammad (SAW)? do you think muslims are not human enough that they don't have the rights to get angry?

WOW ..

So when Muslims kill Christians, you say "Do you expect Muslims to not get angry"?
And when Christians kill Muslims, you say "Is that what Jesus would have done, you hipocrite?"

Please let me know how it feels when a Christian kills a Muslim and then I say "hey, we are expected to get angry, so please excuse us!"

Bookofknowledge · Oct 27, 2005

NOTW said:
WOW ..

So when Muslims kill Christians, you say "Do you expect Muslims to not get angry"?
And when Christians kill Muslims, you say "Is that what Jesus would have done, you hipocrite?"

Please let me know how it feels when a Christian kills a Muslim and then I say "hey, we are expected to get angry, so please excuse us!"

Are you young? or are you not a believer?

Do you not have the rights of retribution in your religion for the killing of innocents? If so then what is it you are trying to say?

peaceful soul · Oct 27, 2005

Bookofknowledge said:
A false Prophet doesn't and cann't call towards righteousness and peace? do you agree with me?

Why not? Can't someone fool you by telling you what you want to hear or perceive as correct? It happens all too often. Have you ever been fooled by someone? Look at it this way, many other people throughout history have done noble things but were not above board in the final analysis.

Am I to read your statement as saying that if a person who claims to be a prophet of God leads you to do good things, that automatically makes him authentic? Far from the truth if you are willing to be truthful yourself.

Are you a dictator?

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