Are we to stand for this?

Jon0388g · Jan 20, 2007

I would like people's opinion on this, particularly the moderator's - Sophia, Tall, etc.

If I were to adopt the guise 'IlovethePope" or something, barge into the Catholic forum, and join in their discussions, is there no way that it can be determined whether I was a Catholic or not?

Would it be allowed if I were to start questioning the Pope's authority, questioning Catholic tradition, bringing up Daniel and how their church is the little horn, saying their church is practically pagan, etc, all under the guise as a church going Catholic?

If I am not mistaken, the point of the Seventh-day Adventist forum is to have healthy, lively debates and discussions with fellow Adventists in the faith. Why is it that if we venture out of our forum, say, into GT, we get attacked about EGW, the Sabbath, the Law, the Sanctuary, and we come back to our own forum, and the same is happening here?

In my opinion, our forum is infested with so called 'Adventists' who seem to only be using the label to cause controversy, and to spread a blatantly non-Adventist message. How can it be tolerated when certain individuals state they are 'only here to show people the real 'gospel' of Jesus Christ alone?'

I for one am getting quite offended that this is going on to the extent it is.

Jon

g85 · Jan 20, 2007

mmm I somehow felt the same way (thats why I didnt post too much on the sda forum)... I think some of the topics which shouldnt be discussed in the Adventist GENERAL forum are...

I dont know...

g85 · Jan 20, 2007

At the same time I want to keep posting on this forum coz I am an SDA (and this is like a nice place to talk about things knowing others will understand your point of you... I dont come to this forum to try to convince ppl about the basics of adventism... if you all know what I mean).

Anyway, happy sabbath

Jon0388g · Jan 20, 2007

g85 said:
At the same time I want to keep posting on this forum coz I am an SDA (and this is like a nice place to talk about things knowing others will understand your point of you... I dont come to this forum to try to convince ppl about the basics of adventism... if you all know what I mean).

Anyway, happy sabbath

g85, I know exactly what you mean. I am not suprised this forum doesn't get much participation - we get harassed so much on the outside world for our beliefs, only to get it here too? I don't know why I bother either.

But for those who read and choose not to participate, there needs to be true Adventists who represent what Adventism really stands for.

Meanwhile, I hope you do choose to contribute more, we'd love to hear from you!!! Happy Sabbath to you too!

Jon

happywiththelord · Jan 20, 2007

This has been going on for a long time. I was very active about a year to a year and a half ago. So was a LOT of other people. Things go so heated in here, that tradtional sdas were banned and some other progressive sdas as well. it was very ugly! it disappointed me so much, that i lost interest and left. why come to a place and get bashed on by other so called sda's. you cant say one thing without being preached to. i hate to post anything because of getting attacked. even something as innocent as potluck, people start bashing you for eating certain stuff, etc. why cant we just come in and talk about our "adventist culture" and appreciate it and laugh at it and all its quirks instead of talking about how this and that is wrong, etc.

it gets to be a real drag. everything is taken so seriously, goodness! dont people joke and laugh anymore? i completely understand your being fed up with stuff. i got that way myself.

i know the people who look after the site did there best, but sometimes its just to late. i hope that if enough of us feel this way, we can make a change in doing things ourselves. like starting a new thread for light conversation,and that only light conversation can happen there. and if someone comes in and starts talking trash, or being negative, we report them or ignore them. we can make a change. we can!

tall73 · Jan 20, 2007

You apparently haven't visited the OBOB forum

They fight all the time over CC issues--birth control, submission to the papacy, etc. Ever heard the term "Cafeteria Catholic?" It refers to those who pick and choose among the Church's teachings, though the term is a bit of a slam, so I just use it an example. Those who are considered "liberal" Catholics believe they are pushing for needed change.

In Adventism we should actually expect more of this. We are non-creedal, and therefore should expect a number of views on things.

Even the 28 fundamentals are not a creed, though they are the statement of the world church.

All congregations have their disputes. It just seems that we have more than usual. And lately there have been a lot more.

For a long stretch at the beginning of the Adventist forum there was this kind of fighting. Then it stopped for about 8 months. Now it has started up again for the last few months.

It seems to go in cycles. And it also seems to take a migration of people from the forum for it to change. The first time it happened a few of the traditionals left. And strangely then a lot of the liberals left too (no one to argue with )

I am not suggesting that anyone leave. But when a certain group gets used to certain topics, it is hard to switch the channel.

In any case, the reason we have the progressive and traditional forums is that the board had tons of tension before. So if you don't want to be argued with post in the sub-forums.

Adventism will always have its debates. We seem to not know what to do when we are not debating. Sad but true.

If I could make any change just by wishing it though, it would not be to end all debate, but to have everyone act in love, even if there is debate.

Incidentally, I am a mod in GT, not the Adventist area, so I don't call any shots here

That and I have more or less been on an Adventist forum break for some time.

If find that if I am studying an issue that debate of certain types tends to polarize and skew my assessment.

tall73 · Jan 20, 2007

happywiththelord said:
This has been going on for a long time. I was very active about a year to a year and a half ago. So was a LOT of other people. Things go so heated in here, that tradtional sdas were banned and some other progressive sdas as well. it was very ugly! it disappointed me so much, that i lost interest and left. why come to a place and get bashed on by other so called sda's. you cant say one thing without being preached to. i hate to post anything because of getting attacked. even something as innocent as potluck, people start bashing you for eating certain stuff, etc. why cant we just come in and talk about our "adventist culture" and appreciate it and laugh at it and all its quirks instead of talking about how this and that is wrong, etc.

it gets to be a real drag. everything is taken so seriously, goodness! dont people joke and laugh anymore? i completely understand your being fed up with stuff. i got that way myself.

i know the people who look after the site did there best, but sometimes its just to late. i hope that if enough of us feel this way, we can make a change in doing things ourselves. like starting a new thread for light conversation,and that only light conversation can happen there. and if someone comes in and starts talking trash, or being negative, we report them or ignore them. we can make a change. we can!

I remember well the times you mentioned, and mentioned them in my post as well, since I hadn't seen yours yet. You were here earlier than I by a few months, and got in on the ground floor of the bickering!

Even though I recall at leats one thread where it was said to be fellowship only and a debate broke out, as a general rule that sort of request will be respected.

So starting threads just for fellowship is a good idea.

But the debate will likely never go away. Just the names change

Remember

Statrei/payattention
TrustandObey and Palehorse (still around occassionally)
Stormyone (still around very rarely, mostly at blacksda)
Yeshuamysalvation

etc.?

tall73 · Jan 20, 2007

Ah, and Jon, if you are implying that some are just faking being Adventists, I really don't think that is the case. And everytime a witchhunt ensued here it was painful.

Jon0388g · Jan 20, 2007

tall73 said:
You apparently haven't visited the OBOB forum

They fight all the time over CC issues--birth control, submission to the papacy, etc. Ever heard the term "Cafeteria Catholic?" It refers to those who pick and choose among the Church's teachings, though the term is a bit of a slam, so I just use it an example. Those who are considered "liberal" Catholics believe they are pushing for needed change.

In Adventism we should actually expect more of this. We are non-creedal, and therefore should expect a number of views on things.

Even the 28 fundamentals are not a creed, though they are the statement of the world church.

All congregations have their disputes. It just seems that we have more than usual. And lately there have been a lot more.

For a long stretch at the beginning of the Adventist forum there was this kind of fighting. Then it stopped for about 8 months. Now it has started up again for the last few months.

It seems to go in cycles. And it also seems to take a migration of people from the forum for it to change. The first time it happened a few of the traditionals left. And strangely then a lot of the liberals left too (no one to argue with )

I am not suggesting that anyone leave. But when a certain group gets used to certain topics, it is hard to switch the channel.

In any case, the reason we have the progressive and traditional forums is that the board had tons of tension before. So if you don't want to be argued with post in the sub-forums.

Adventism will always have its debates. We seem to not know what to do when we are not debating. Sad but true.

If I could make any change just by wishing it though, it would not be to end all debate, but to have everyone act in love, even if there is debate.

Incidentally, I am a mod in GT, not the Adventist area, so I don't call any shots here

That and I have more or less been on an Adventist forum break for some time.

If find that if I am studying an issue that debate of certain types tends to polarize and skew my assessment.

I can appreciate that there will always be differring views in the Adventist church - but when the basic fundamentals of Adventist doctrine are being blatantly disregarded (and even certain comments bordering blasphemus) - then it needs to stop.

Debating over the details of the Sanctuary is one thing. Even EGW I feel can and should be discussed by fellow Adventists. But, when people start disregarding the Ten Commandments, even the Sabbath of all things, are they truly Adventist? By the rules of the forum, only Adventists are allowed to debate here.

I cannot claim to be a Seventh-day Adventist and break the Sabbath. This is ridiculous.

Jon

Jon0388g · Jan 20, 2007

I used to wonder why myself and maybe one or two others were the only youth here.

But, nowadays its so apparent; people my age are so clearly confused that the older, so called "SDAs" are going contrary to what we have been brought up in all our lives, that they feel alienated from posting!

I am lucky that I find Daniel and Revelation and the Sanctuary so fascinating, but the vast majority do not. What and who does it please when people my age are being forced to doubt their heritage?

Jon

g85 · Jan 20, 2007

Jon0388g said:
g85, I know exactly what you mean. I am not suprised this forum doesn't get much participation - we get harassed so much on the outside world for our beliefs, only to get it here too? I don't know why I bother either.

But for those who read and choose not to participate, there needs to be true Adventists who represent what Adventism really stands for.

Meanwhile, I hope you do choose to contribute more, we'd love to hear from you!!! Happy Sabbath to you too!

Jon

yeah... I dont mean that we CANT debate (coz its good to keep the brain active) BUT... we should have some fun too hehe

tall73 · Jan 20, 2007

Tell ya what Jon, pm me the statements that you are speaking of and I will take a look at it.

However, sometimes people develop questions. And sweeping them under the rug doesn't work. In fact, my wife, I don't think it is any secret, has been questioning some things lately. But if you ask happywiththelord whether Sophia was one of the liberals in the early days here, I doubt she would say yes. She was arguing with some of the liberals back then as you do now.

Just the way things work I suppose.

g85 · Jan 20, 2007

Jon0388g said:
I used to wonder why myself and maybe one or two others were the only youth here.

But, nowadays its so apparent; people my age are so clearly confused that the older, so called "SDAs" are going contrary to what we have been brought up in all our lives, that they feel alienated from posting!

I am lucky that I find Daniel and Revelation and the Sanctuary so fascinating, but the vast majority do not. What and who does it please when people my age are being forced to doubt their heritage?

Jon

mmmm I feel fascinated about the Santuary, Daniel and Revelation as well... (Its amazing really)!!

I was raised in a SDA home (even my grandparents were sda)... and I know what you mean about ppl our age (though you are younger than me ) hehe... ONLY A FEW of my friends at uni really care about telling ppl about our believes and stuff (and I was at an SDA university with 3000 ppl)! ... its crazy...

sigh... I just wish there as more ACTION in my church (if that makes sense)!

g85 · Jan 20, 2007

tall73 said:
Tell ya what Jon, pm me the statements that you are speaking of and I will take a look at it.

However, sometimes people develop questions. And sweeping them under the rug doesn't work. In fact, my wife, I don't think it is any secret, has been questioning some things lately. But if you ask happywiththelord whether Sophia was one of the liberals in the early days here, I doubt she would say yes. She was arguing with some of the liberals back then as you do now.

Just the way things work I suppose.

I think its healthy for us to question stuff... But sometimes at least I felt that on this SDA forum is was all questioning stuff and arguing... and never "lighter topics"...I dont know, It doesnt keep me happy speaking about Ellen White more than we do about the Bible (for example)... which I felt like it was done in here...

(This is my personal opinion, I dont mean to offend anyone... This is just how I feel sometimes going through the SDA threads )

happywiththelord · Jan 20, 2007

yeah tall, i remember you from back then. i have always liked ready your posts. You seem to be a good guy! Appreciate ya! I do remember the names you listed. several of them i had to put on my ignore list because it got so ridiculous. you couldnt say one thing without them debating you. you could say it was sunny outside and they would debate you on that. "is it really sunny, or is it presumed sunny?.." haha! It was just crazy. so i did leave and have been gun shy about coming back. i have gotten my feet wet a little bit since i have been back. i dont say much, because i guess i am still weary of being attacked. but that was a crazy time!

Hopefully the climate will change again all will feel welcome posting as they feel let to without fear of being trampled on.

i realize that debate will never go away. i understand that perfectly, but i do hope that we do have safe areas that people feel they can talk about there religious heritage, etc. openly and be proud of it and have others support without others coming in feeling they have to comment on everything and tearing them down.

I feel the peoples pain who are just now going through this! It is a bit of a suprise to see "our kin folk" beating on eachother. I was there myself! But with the the rooms being seperated, traditional sda, progressive sda, etc. possibly this will help! that is if people follow the rules.

Jon0388g · Jan 20, 2007

happywiththelord said:
yeah tall, i remember you from back then. i have always liked ready your posts. You seem to be a good guy! Appreciate ya! I do remember the names you listed. several of them i had to put on my ignore list because it got so ridiculous. you couldnt say one thing without them debating you. you could say it was sunny outside and they would debate you on that. "is it really sunny, or is it presumed sunny?.." haha! It was just crazy. so i did leave and have been gun shy about coming back. i have gotten my feet wet a little bit since i have been back. i dont say much, because i guess i am still weary of being attacked. but that was a crazy time!

Hopefully the climate will change again all will feel welcome posting as they feel let to without fear of being trampled on.

i realize that debate will never go away. i understand that perfectly, but i do hope that we do have safe areas that people feel they can talk about there religious heritage, etc. openly and be proud of it and have others support without others coming in feeling they have to comment on everything and tearing them down.

I feel the peoples pain who are just now going through this! It is a bit of a suprise to see "our kin folk" beating on eachother. I was there myself! But with the the rooms being seperated, traditional sda, progressive sda, etc. possibly this will help! that is if people follow the rules.

Hi,

I don't think I was around when the 'first wave' was happening lol, I'm part of the 'new breed' hehe!

But, were the very fundamentals of Adventism being attacked? I can even understand if fellow Adventists question aspects of the IJ/EGW etc, but, the Ten Commandments???? Surely!

Jon

tall73 · Jan 20, 2007

I would say you were part of the third wave actually. You came toward the end of the calm period.

Cliff2 is probably one of the few remaining from the early times.

Lol, you really should have met Statrei, etc.

I don't think there was anything he didn't question. I wondered sometimes if he was even a theist in the general sense. I think he is. But he has far different views that I do. You can still meet him if you want to venture over to blacksdaforums.

I could look up a few debates for you if you like. Woob and I were debating him for pages on the Sabbath, prophecies of Daniel, etc.

Yes, there were fundamentals questioned all the time. And there were constant accusations about non-adventists picking icons just to debate.

Most of it just resulted in fighting and banning etc. Not really helpful.

Adventist Dissident · Jan 20, 2007

Jon0388g said:
I

would like people's opinion on this, particularly the moderator's - Sophia, Tall, etc.

Click to expand...

2 of the most comitted christians i have know and some of the best SDA' threr are. Neither one want to leave or criticize the SDA chruch. if they are question it is because they have legitmate questions and want legit answers not porpangada.

Would it be allowed if I were to start questioning the Pope's authority, questioning Catholic tradition

Click to expand...

, catholic do it all the time, they are called "cafitera Catholics". Not all catholics accept traditison and the authority of the pope.

,

lively debates and discussions with fellow Adventists in the faith.

Click to expand...

those are Adventists
you cannot say that because they don't believe what you believe they are not SDA's. If they have the evidence to back up there claims then you must deal with the issues. sorry that is how truth works.

blatantly non-Adventist message.

Click to expand...

The sda church has a Christian message first and an Advent message 2nd. to do it the other way around is place somethig higher then christ.

Jon you said earlier that you had not made up you mind on egw, but now you saying that you are a supporte of the Advent message. which is it . Jom can you take a challange to your faith. if your faith can't stand testing then how good is your faith. In football when the officals make a call the coach's can make a challange to the call by through the red flag and having the play reviewed. It doesen't make them bad coaches by challanging the ruling of the officals. It make them a good coach. The same applies here. ALL sophia7, Tall73, myself and other have done is through out the Red flag for theoloical and historical review. that is all it makes us good thinkers and good christians, not rebels or apostates, or heritics. I sorry your faith cant handle review but mine can. the "critis" thread it one thread in this forum not the whole forum. if it wer the whole fourm then that would be a problem, but that is not the case. it is 1 thread. those who want to discuss the critic can come those who don't, dont have to.

OntheDL · Jan 20, 2007

Jon,

The wheat and tares are going to grow together to the very end. I think this place is not to be any different, unfortunately.

But for those who think to have the truth, even this is a test of faith. We need to be like that persistant widow.

I think alot of times, I'm guilty as well as anyone here, we got suckered into fights and lose sight of it.

If we have the truth and are born again, we need to manifest Jesus' love.

Will He find faith when comes back?

Jon0388g · Jan 20, 2007

icedragon101 said:
Jon0388g said:

I 2 of the most comitted christians i have know and some of the best SDA' threr are. Neither one want to leave or criticize the SDA chruch. if they are question it is because they have legitmate questions and want legit answers not porpangada.

, catholic do it all the time, they are called "cafitera Catholics". Not all catholics accept traditison and the authority of the pope.

, those are Adventists
you cannot say that because they don't believe what you believe they are not SDA's. If they have the evidence to back up there claims then you must deal with the issues. sorry that is how truth works.

The sda church has a Christian message first and an Advent message 2nd. to do it the other way around is place somethig higher then christ.

Jon you said earlier that you had not made up you mind on egw, but now you saying that you are a supporte of the Advent message. which is it . Jom can you take a challange to your faith. if your faith can't stand testing then how good is your faith. In football when the officals make a call the coach's can make a challange to the call by through the red flag and having the play reviewed. It doesen't make them bad coaches by challanging the ruling of the officals. It make them a good coach. The same applies here. ALL sophia7, Tall73, myself and other have done is through out the Red flag for theoloical and historical review. that is all it makes us good thinkers and good christians, not rebels or apostates, or heritics. I sorry your faith cant handle review but mine can. the "critis" thread it one thread in this forum not the whole forum. if it wer the whole fourm then that would be a problem, but that is not the case. it is 1 thread. those who want to discuss the critic can come those who don't, dont have to.

Click to expand...

You can point your finger at me all you want, saying I can't take my faith being tested, whatever.

I said what I had to say, someone had to say it sooner or later. If we are distancing ourselves from the very principles that define us as 'Seventh-day Adventists' - then in my books we are no longer Adventist.

Jon

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