Are we suppose to know?

visionary said:

ARE WE SUPPOSED TO KNOW WHEN?

There is a multitude of verses concerning the Lord’s return and even an admonishment from Him saying, “Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that you do not discern this time?” That one verse should be proof enough that we should know, but He is not just going to plainly spell it out lest the wicked should understand.

We also know there are NO idle words in the Word of God. If therefore, it is not meant for us to understand or know the time of His coming, wouldn’t all the verses with clues pertaining to the time of His return be counted as idle words?

Click to expand...

Or we may have failed to see the distinction between knowing the time of His coming and not being scared by events associated with the time of His coming. Declaring something to be IDLE when it is not can be rather dangerous.

unless of course it is a visitor who has a car that sounds like your father's.....

LovebirdsFlying said:

Let's condense it to a smaller scale. You're a little child. You saw Daddy leave for work that morning, and he told you he would be back that evening. You don't know traffic conditions. You don't know if Daddy might have been stuck with a last-minute task. There are lot of reasons Daddy might be later than you expect, some that you can guess but others that wouldn't even enter your mind because you are a child, and your mind is not as developed as Daddy's.

You don't know the exact minute he'll be there. But you know he's on his way. As his arrival nears, you can discern when he's about to open the door. You hear an engine. You see the shine of headlights in the driveway. The dog barks in anticipation. A car door opens, then closes. There are footsteps on the porch--and at last the door opens. Daddy is home, and you run on your little baby legs to meet him.

You didn't wake up from your nap knowing the exact moment of his arrival, but you had a rough guess, and as the time got closer you knew it was about to happen.

Click to expand...

Should we base important things on our rough guesses? Should we create a new system of theology to explain prior, inaccurate rough guesses? If it is imperative to us that we believe that daddy is just around the corner, will we tire of waiting for him? What happened to those who were waiting for the Messiah to come?

I submit that faith is more important than rough guesses, a God-given faith that transcends rough guesses, a God-given faith that leads to peace even when the rough guesses of others fail to materialize.

BFA

I was thinking about that the other day and came to the conclusion that there is actually very little specifically we are supposed to know about the second coming of Christ. Most prophecy was never fully understood until after the fact. The main purpose of prophecy was not to warn people what things they could do to save themselves from suffering in troubles yet to come, but to exhort people to draw near to God. God would then guide them in ways they knew not, to the best place they could be (and this might not be the "safest" place!). An exception would be the prophecy about Jerusalem surrounded by armies.

It seems to me that all prophecy wonks in Christianity, incuding Adventists, treat Bible prophecy as if it were some kind of substitution code. As kids we played spy and invented little codes where you would write an encrypted letter to someone by substituting each letter in the alphabet for another letter. We have an unfortunate tendency to do that to Daniel and Revelation and other works of prophecy, as if, if we knew what the seven thunders were, and what the one third of the trees were, we could paraphrase what the prophecy said in a way that you could just teach the whole system of prophecy decoding to a new Bible student, and they would know future events. We look at Jesus' explanation of the parable of the sower in Matthew 13:19-23, and we assume that prophecy works that way- like a substitution code. But I no longer believe that.

1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." I think that we were never meant to know too many details about future events. I think that God wants us to draw near to Him in prayer, in worship, in service, an study of His word so that by our associating with those things and having God's concerns foremost on our minds, His Holy Spirit is more able to communicate with us clearly. Then His Spirit will whisper to us little things that will guide us into positioning ourselves to be the best place we can be when prophecy begins to unfold, and we won't even know that it's happening to us.

Telaquapacky said:

I was thinking about that the other day and came to the conclusion that there is actually very little specifically we are supposed to know about the second coming of Christ. Most prophecy was never fully understood until after the fact. The main purpose of prophecy was not to warn people what things they could do to save themselves from suffering in troubles yet to come, but to exhort people to draw near to God. God would then guide them in ways they knew not, to the best place they could be (and this might not be the "safest" place!). An exception would be the prophecy about Jerusalem surrounded by armies.

It seems to me that all prophecy wonks in Christianity, incuding Adventists, treat Bible prophecy as if it were some kind of substitution code. As kids we played spy and invented little codes where you would write an encrypted letter to someone by substituting each letter in the alphabet for another letter. We have an unfortunate tendency to do that to Daniel and Revelation and other works of prophecy, as if, if we knew what the seven thunders were, and what the one third of the trees were, we could paraphrase what the prophecy said in a way that you could just teach the whole system of prophecy decoding to a new Bible student, and they would know future events. We look at Jesus' explanation of the parable of the sower in Matthew 13:19-23, and we assume that prophecy works that way- like a substitution code. But I no longer believe that.

1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." I think that we were never meant to know too many details about future events. I think that God wants us to draw near to Him in prayer, in worship, in service, an study of His word so that by our associating with those things and having God's concerns foremost on our minds, His Holy Spirit is more able to communicate with us clearly. Then His Spirit will whisper to us little things that will guide us into positioning ourselves to be the best place we can be when prophecy begins to unfold, and we won't even know that it's happening to us.

Click to expand...

There is much wisdom in your post.

BFA

visionary said:

I guess my question should be...

Do you believe that heaven and earth pass away at the Lord's second coming or after the thousand years?

Click to expand...

The way I read that passage, the emphasis is not on heaven and earth passing away, but more on solidifying the eternal truth of Jesus' word, that though heaven and earth will pass away, His word will never pass away- specifically meaning the Gospel- the inevitablilty and sureness of the fulfillment of God's promises to His people.

I do believe that the fulfillment of God's ultimate promise of a new heaven and a new earth (2 Peter 3:10-13) means that the present earth and heaven will pass away. All it takes for an old earth to pass away is for the surface of the planet to be plowed or scorched. He's already plowed it once- with the flood, using water and geologic upheavals. Next time, 2 Peter 3:7 says that this present earth is reserved for fire. God has demonstrated that He can redo the surface of the planet and leave the orb itself intact.

But for the present heaven to pass away, what might that entail? I'm not thinking of stars, planets and galaxies being swept away. Maybe the language there is more spiritually metaphorical and symbolic, and maybe it applies specifically to the heavenly sanctuary where the presence of the Father is centered. I think of the present earth as a place of rebellion and pockets of resistance, and the present heaven as a worshipful workplace of redemption and preparation for an eternity where we will actually cohabit with God. I am one who believes in the unconscious, "sleeping" state of the dead, as the dead in Christ will be resurrected to life at Christ's second coming, but are meanwhile in a state similar to non-existence (except in the memory of God and our surviving loved ones) until then. If that's true, then there's no place for us in heaven yet- and no need to "put" us anywhere. By ministering on our behalf in the heavenly sanctuary (Hebrews 9:8-12), Jesus is preparing a place for us by justifying us (John 14:2,3) just as the Holy Spirit prepares us for that place by sanctifying us while we are still alive.

If there is an "old heaven," and a "new heaven," I think of the "old heaven" as a place of Jesus ministering His shed blood for our redemption, and angels coming and going to minister to us. That would be a workplace, as well as a continual place of worship. Some human beings are there now, whom God has appointed to participate in the process- I'm thinking the twenty-four elders in Revelation 4:4, including Moses and Elijah, who make cameo appearances on the Mount of Transfiguration. When Jesus comes to earth to collect the rest of His saved people and bring them back, then the old heaven, a worshipful "workplace," will be replaced by a new heaven, a worshipful place of rest and dwelling with God.

After the thousand years, the earth will be remodeled, the surface redone to resemble the Garden of Eden, and God's ultimate promise of dwelling with us there will be realized.