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Are we Free

gillfrost

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How can Go interviegn with the worlds happenings without infringing on out freedoms. And since when have we been garenteed pure freedom by God. Just like freedom is only partial in the US and other countries, perhaps it is similar to that with God. It is hard to compare the world to God, like apples to oranges.
Just something to turn over in your mind.
 

Dyrwen

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I've no gods to control my supposed future as far as my thoughts on the matter go.

But as far as freedom goes, we're not free. So long as nations, leaders, governments, laws and taxes rule over our lives we will not be free. It is only after we shake away these supposed "civil liberties" of safety and take a risk at the freedoms we deserve will we ever be "free."

Just a thought to turn back at ya.
 
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Lifesaver

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I believe that we are indeed free. But our free will is not perfect, meaning that we can be influenced in all sorts of unconscious ways.

Changing the topic, I also think the presence of laws and a state actually make our freedom "larger" than it would be in a natural state. From what we observe of a great part of mankind today is that most people have no qualms with any sort of imorality, and the only thing keeping them from killing and stealing are laws and punishment.

It is not hard to guess what would happen if all murder and proprierty laws were to be abolished tomorrow.
And is the life of constant fear over one's life and of constant worry over our proprierties objectively less free than the life in which we have these basic rights secured?
Who is more free? A man who has to physically fight for power over others every day or a man who gets to vote for a leader who'll represent his views?

The answer is pretty clear.
Only an idealist who denies the falleness of our world and of the human condition would ever claim that life without laws and rules would constitute a freer existence than a civilized society with guaranteed rights and duties.
 
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de Unamuno

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To understand the mainstream Christian justification for free will, you have to understand some Christian theology...

DISCLAIMER: If the following doesn't represent someone's theology, feel free to say so. I won't be offended.

NATURE OF GOD:
Most Christians believe that God has a trinitarian nature, meaning he is of three persons. That is, God (the Father) exists forever and outside of time/space. One aspect of that God is his perfect love. From that love naturally and eternally materializes another person to receive and then reciprocate that love, the Son. The love that is produced between father and son assumes an entirely new person, the Holy Spirit. All three persons eternally exist from the Father, self-contained, through perpetuity.

PURPOSE OF MAN:
With the exception of some Reformists, most Christians believe that God's purpose for creating man was to create a being with the capacity to fully offer love to God through a completely free act of will. The purpose of all existance, then, is to live like God in total, faithful self-giving and receptivity to God's love.

GIFT OF FREE WILL:
From this understanding of God's nature, it becomes necessary that everyone, regardless of past or circumstance, faces at least once in his/her life the utterly free choice to choose Him, or to deny Him. This is an ability that is granted by God, as a gift, though he does not need to do it. He chooses to restrain his control over the world in order to allow for free will. Logically speaking, any decision to love God that is not truly free, is not a true gift of self. The Father does not force or require the Son, nor does he force us. Unlike the Son's only nature of perfect love, however, we have a second nature, a fallen nature, that keeps us in constant struggle between our conflicting desires for worldy love versus God's love.

GOD'S INTERVENTION:
Instead of controlling our hearts, God pursues our hearts. If we seek Him, He will respond directly by answering prayer or just by changing our lives dramatically for the better (or worse, if it's good for us). If he pursues us as individuals, it makes sense that he also pursues us as a race. The Exodus, the Passion and the Resurrection, were some ways he interceded to pursue the hearts of all of his children collectively.

FREEDOM VS LICENSE:
So we can acknowledge that other factors play into our decisions, but that God allows free decisions all the time, and that at some point in our decision-making process, God often (if not always) allows us a free choice. Those decisions are what we are judged on, so freedom it may be, but license to do anything we want, it is not.

One might think of this as a false freedom, since we get punished for choosing the "wrong path", but the ramifications of a free act of sin is to choose to contradict our created nature and to choose to move away from God. (This gets into more Catholic-centred philosophy here). Like asking God to leave the room. He respects your choice and will leave, though he doesn't stop pursuing you to come back. So, ultimately, your choices to distance yourself from Him, and to ignore his calling you back, will result in the natural end: to be completely distanced from Him - to be in hell.

CHOICE FOR NON-CHRISTIANS
Keep in mind that this decision to "choose God" also includes people who choose God's morality (which is written on all of our hearts, regardless of culture or upbringing). Many people have not even heard of Jesus, or were never given sufficient message of the gospels. These people can still follow the law of God, even if it comes in another less-recognizeable form. Catholics make no claim as to what God has in store for these people, so we simply assume the best and have faith in God's divine fairness.


Sorry, this explanation turned out to be longer than I had hoped. If you made it this far, let me know and I'll give you some blessings :)

Peace be with you,
 
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BlueRose

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de Unamuno,

You gave a very good explanation, but I must say that your explanation of "Christian Theology" only encompasses what some believe. In amongst Christians are many, many different theological beliefs. I have now come to the conclusion that the purpose of man is to purely give God glory.

As for free will, I challenge you all to look more deeply into the subject. Up until a year or two ago, when presented with the "God's sovereignty vs. Free will" debate, I thought it was all about free will. Let me ask you though--does the Bible ever say we have a free will? Many times it says that we need to "choose" or "seek", but are we doing those things with no intervention from God?

Is God putting the future into our hands? Is He depending solely upon us humans to determine who will go to heaven, by who we happen to witness to? Or is there more--has God made a master plan? Look into your Bibles about the many verses speaking on predestination or God choosing us. Romans 9 is also a place that throws some ideas of free will out the window. This is a huge struggle of mine--to accept that maybe I'm not the one in control. How many times do you hear Christians say that as they look back at big decisions they made in the past, they can completely see that God was guiding them the entire time?

There is so much more to this 'debate' that I cannot even begin to gather my thoughts on, to type. When one is dead in their sins, do they have the power to give themselves life? Or does God have to give them life? Can a dead person accept life? Why would someone dead in their sins ever want to choose anything other than sin, unless God started working in their hearts? Does not the holy spirit play a role in someone becoming a Christian? We can plant the seeds, but the Holy Spirit is the one that needs to water it for the person to ever "accept" Christ.

This is probably pretty confusing. I just want you all to think about it, though. Are we actually free? Or is it our human desire to think we are in control, when God is the one actually calling the shots? Could God have possibly planned for a number of things to happen in our world & lives?
 
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de Unamuno

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BlueRose said:
de Unamuno,

You gave a very good explanation, but I must say that your explanation of "Christian Theology" only encompasses what some believe. In amongst Christians are many, many different theological beliefs. I have now come to the conclusion that the purpose of man is to purely give God glory.

BlueRose, you are right. My explanation is very "Catholic" and definitely does not represent all Protestant Christian faiths, but please forgive me for not going into the theological nuances in that post. The reality is that the question of God's will and sovereignty goes all the way back to the earliest Church fathers. You will probably be surprised just how much we Catholics rely on God's saving grace to enable our salvation.

Here is a post that deals with this very subject. In it, you will find some links to a few Catholic apologist essays that do a fine job of outlining the arguments for our position, as well as the Calvinist view of predestination, which assumes a more extreme version of God's predestination which does not allow for human free will.

Let me know if it helps.

Peace be with you,
 
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Prometheus_ash

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Something you might also like to know is that science presupposes that humans are predetermined, which is to say, causal and thus not free. Science deals with things on the causal level, including humanities free-will or lack thereof, which means, that in science, it must presuppose that we do not have free will.

Existentialists rejct this view point, claiming that science is all great wonderfull and usefull, but can't apply to free will because our fundemental perception of the world is that of freedom. Just because we dont always have good choices does not mean we dont have a choice.
 
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de Unamuno

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Prometheus_ash said:
Something you might also like to know is that science presupposes that humans are predetermined, which is to say, causal and thus not free. Science deals with things on the causal level, including humanities free-will or lack thereof, which means, that in science, it must presuppose that we do not have free will.

Existentialists rejct this view point, claiming that science is all great wonderfull and usefull, but can't apply to free will because our fundemental perception of the world is that of freedom. Just because we dont always have good choices does not mean we dont have a choice.

I would correct you that Determinism "presupposes that humans are predetermined...". Determinism is a philosophy which proposes a worldview. Science proposes nothing. Science does deal with things on the causal level, but it simply records facts and puts forth theories about what seems to be true, until of course new evidence requires the theory to be thrown out or altered.
 
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Prometheus_ash

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Science presuposes that everything we do is casual related, and therefore it is possible to come up with a throey that perfectly explians them 90% and more of the time. This is, in essence, psychology.

Personally, I believe tyhat it is better for us to believe we do in fact have freewill, whether or not we actually do.
 
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BookerB

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BlueRose,

As for free will, I challenge you all to look more deeply into the subject. Up until a year or two ago, when presented with the "God's sovereignty vs. Free will" debate, I thought it was all about free will. Let me ask you though--does the Bible ever say we have a free will? Many times it says that we need to "choose" or "seek", but are we doing those things with no intervention from God? (bold is mine)

I guess that all depends on how one reasons out certain Scripture. Clearly God says we are made in his image and likeness. Image has to do with shape and form, but likeness has to do with intrinsic qualities. God has an intellect, will, and emotion. In God's likeness, man also has an intellect, will, and emotion. Will to most people mean choice. One can will themselves to this or to do that. When Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, did God forced them to do so? If so why was he upset with their action? Strangely, I believe that it was in his plan to entice them to do so. In this way they came into the knowledge of those things that were good and those things that were evil. In essence they were given a menu to choose from -- good or evil. Thus they were given a choice, or free will. Are some things predetermined by God? yes! We do not have the freedom to choose our parents, race, gender, nationality, etc. But, pretty much in all other things we are allowed to choose. God has angels that he created specifically to serve him. I do truly believe that he wants us to make a conscious decision to follow him; that is how we can glorify him.

Just the way I see it.
 
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