Are they with Jesus now or asleep until he raise them later?

timothyu · Apr 10, 2023

Jesus opened the door to rebirth, the new Kingdom for the worthy that replaces this world, and that new Kingdom comes down from Heaven. We don't go there. Heaven is the realm of the spiritual heavenly host God first created. This world (which the heavenly host cheered over and later corrupted) and the Kingdom to come is our domain, we being the second created family of God, never intended for Heaven itself. We awaken to a new reality designed for our kind, not the Heavenly Host's kind. Two families cleansed, each in their own intended worlds.

seeker2122 · Apr 11, 2023

d taylor said:
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A person's physical body is asleep until it is resurrected, but the believer is in heaven right now.

just curious....what if there is no physical body remaining ie. in the case of cremation? Will the resurrection return all the ashes together and form the physical body again? Thanks for your answer. I'm just doubtful of the bodily resurrection in terms of the afterlife. I do believe Jesus and anyone else that was raised from the dead by the power of God was a true bodily resurrection, but I'm doubtful our resurrection is going to be a bodily one because if I'm not mistaken, our resurrection of the body is a new body, a spiritual/eternal body. So in other words, I won't be walking around in heaven looking the way I did on earth. People won't see me in the form I am in now. They will see me by my spiritual body.

seeker2122 · Apr 11, 2023

Ordinary Christian said:
My guess is if it exists, it would seem instantaneous, even if it had been a thousand years.

I tend to also believe that death to heaven if asleep for 1000 years would seem like an instant too. I don't think we are conscious or aware as a dead spirit just waiting to be raised and watching everything happening for 1000 years lol. That would be hell in an ironic sort of way! haha.

I think of it like being cryogenically frozen and then awakened 50 or 100 or 200 years later as if no time had passed for you.

seeker2122 · Apr 11, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
Our time dependent point of view is a vapor compared to the reality of 'what is to come'. WE are the ones thinking in those terms; we are the ones who sleep at night; we are the ones thinking there is a difference to when God spoke the universe into being and when God can 'finally' enjoy the fruits of his labors.

In my poor logic I tend to think that not only are those who have gone before us looking down on us now, but so are we! But that is also temporally dependent consideration of non-temporal principle, applied to how I suppose the judgement of our works to happen. That is, that I suppose our motives and every impinging cause of our every thought will be brought to bear. But how that will actually 'play out', I don't know.

I see no reason to think that any who have passed on before us are in any capacity protecting us. I even doubt very much that they are interceding for us, as I have seen no scripture references to that notion.

Thank you for your input.
What about Hebrews 12? It seems to indicate that those who have passed before us are watching us now as a "great cloud of witnesses"....are they really encouraging us on in life to run this race and make it to the finish line? Either they are in heaven or with God watching us and encouraging us on (I doubt this because I can't say I've ever experienced the dead pushing me on in life with encouragement lol) or this scripture passage means something else like maybe the moments just before we enter heaven? A welcoming party from all the faithful men and women to greet us?

seeker2122 · Apr 11, 2023

Dan Perez said:
John 3:13 that No man hath ascended up to heaven , BUT HE that came down from heaven , even the Son of Man which is in heaven .

In Luke 16;21--31 gives the account of where Paradise and Hell are .

People who die , that are saved by GRACE , go to Paradise mentioned in 2 Cor 12:1-4 which is an intermediate state .

dan p

Thanks interesting. So this "intermediate state" between earthly death and eternally living in heaven is called Paradise? Isn't this intermediate state similar to what catholics believe as "purgatory"? It seems that in purgatory, there is another chance for people to come to Christ. Perhaps this is where there is a great cloud of witnesses cheering us on to make it to heaven? lol

I've never heard of an intermediate state in the evangelical sense. Paradise is like what, a waiting room just before you enter the doctor's office?
Are people alive and conscious roaming around in Paradise waiting to enter Heaven? Paradise sounds like a place you wouldn't want to leave lol. Is there more information about what this Paradise is or looks like or what one does in Paradise while waiting to get into Heaven?

Mark Quayle · Apr 11, 2023

seeker2122 said:
just curious....what if there is no physical body remaining ie. in the case of cremation? Will the resurrection return all the ashes together and form the physical body again? Thanks for your answer. I'm just doubtful of the bodily resurrection in terms of the afterlife. I do believe Jesus and anyone else that was raised from the dead by the power of God was a true bodily resurrection, but I'm doubtful our resurrection is going to be a bodily one because if I'm not mistaken, our resurrection of the body is a new body, a spiritual/eternal body. So in other words, I won't be walking around in heaven looking the way I did on earth. People won't see me in the form I am in now. They will see me by my spiritual body.

It is this body —in my weak opinion, these tiniest particles, that are regrouped/remade to form the new body. It is a physical body —'super physical', and without error, in the same way as God's eternal reality is solid compared to this temporal vapor we consider "reality".

It is not the new body that copies the old. It is the old body that is such a poor copy of the new.

Hawkins · Apr 11, 2023

seeker2122 said:
Those who have passed away recently or long time ago.....are they with Jesus in heaven right now? Looking down on us?
Or are they still in sleep and will be raised when Jesus returns?

Often times we see in movies or hear in stories and interviews that so and so passed away and they are looking down at them from
heaven right now. Is there any biblical truth to this? Is my grandmother watching over me and protecting me or watching my football games
or....etc etc.

I believe that I experienced through the whole process more than 15 years ago, you may still consider that I am speaking for myself, by my own experience though.

We (human) consist of a body a soul and a spirit. The spirit goes out at the moment of death, it marks the end of life and there's no return there till a resurrection occurs. That is, if you still want to go back after the spirit left you, you need God to resurrect you. This way the spirit is said to return to God at the point of death.

Then your soul and body start to separate. If you are deemed to be the wicked, you (i.e., your soul) will stay in Hades awaken. There's an additional process if you are protected by God. You (i.e., your soul) will be put to a sleep till the Judgement Day comes. In this sleeping state you won't feel time. So it's like this moment you die, the next moment you'll be resurrected for the Final Judgment. An exception is the chosen saints, just as indicated in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, angels will carry the saints from Hades to the Third Heaven also known as Abraham's Bosom. Saints such as Moses will continue to work for God in Abraham's Bosom. They are not in a sleep. Samuel may be put to a sleep first, then he's awaken up (in the Saul/witch event) and possibly carried to Abraham's Bosom as well later on. Some saints such as Enoch and Elijah didn't experience death at all. They were carried to Abraham's Bosom directly.

Either you are sleeping in Hades, or awaken in Abraham's Bosom you are said to be with God in paradise as you are under God's protection. Unlike the wicked, they are awaken in Hades which is supposed to be tormenting.

SabbathBlessings · Apr 11, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
It is this body —in my weak opinion, these tiniest particles, that are regrouped/remade to form the new body. It is a physical body —'super physical', and without error, in the same way as God's eternal reality is solid compared to this temporal vapor we consider "reality".

It is not the new body that copies the old. It is the old body that is such a poor copy of the new.

The saved receives their glorified body only when Jesus comes, not before...

1 Cor 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Mark Quayle · Apr 11, 2023

seeker2122 said:
Thank you for your input.
What about Hebrews 12? It seems to indicate that those who have passed before us are watching us now as a "great cloud of witnesses"....are they really encouraging us on in life to run this race and make it to the finish line? Either they are in heaven or with God watching us and encouraging us on (I doubt this because I can't say I've ever experienced the dead pushing me on in life with encouragement lol) or this scripture passage means something else like maybe the moments just before we enter heaven? A welcoming party from all the faithful men and women to greet us?

I think Hebrews 12's "cloud of witnesses" is a reference to those listed in Hebrews 11, their witness being a reference to what they had experienced in their own temporal lives. I don't think the text implies anything but that, except simply our own responsibility to be press on, and to be faithful.

Mark Quayle · Apr 11, 2023

Hawkins said:
I believe that I experienced through the whole process more than 15 years ago, you may still consider that I am speaking for myself, by my own experience though.

We (human) consist of a body a soul and a spirit. The spirit goes out at the moment of death, it marks the end of life and there's no return there till a resurrection occurs. That is, if you still want to go back after the spirit left you, you need God to resurrect you. This way the spirit is said to return to God at the point of death.

Then your soul and body start to separate. If you are deemed to be the wicked, you (i.e., your soul) will stay in Hades awaken. There's an additional process if you are protected by God. You (i.e., your soul) will be put to a sleep till the Judgement Day comes. In this sleeping state you won't feel time. So it's like this moment you die, the next moment you'll be resurrected for the Final Judgment. An exception is the chosen saints, just as indicated in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, angels will carry the saints from Hades to the Third Heaven also known as Abraham's Bosom. Saints such as Moses will continue to work for God in Abraham's Bosom. They are not in a sleep. Samuel may be put to a sleep first, then he's awaken up (in the Saul/witch event) and possibly carried to Abraham's Bosom as well later on. Some saints such as Enoch and Elijah didn't experience death at all. They were carried to Abraham's Bosom directly.

Either you are sleeping in Hades, or awaken in Abraham's Bosom you are said to be with God in paradise as you are under God's protection. Unlike the wicked, they are awaken in Hades which is supposed to be tormenting.

Your description is dependent on time-passage. I see no reason to think we need to apply temporal concepts and frame of mind to the biblical facts of "what comes after".

seeker2122 · Apr 11, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
It is this body —in my weak opinion, these tiniest particles, that are regrouped/remade to form the new body. It is a physical body —'super physical', and without error, in the same way as God's eternal reality is solid compared to this temporal vapor we consider "reality".

It is not the new body that copies the old. It is the old body that is such a poor copy of the new.

Hmm. Very interesting! I find it hard to believe though because then the question would be, "how old would you be?" Your body that is being reformed would have to be either the 12 yr old you, the 30 yr old you, the 80 yr old you...etc. This is why I believe the resurrection doesn't mean our physical bodies as the bible says what came from the dust will return to the dust.....but resurrection meaning our spiritual bodies which will be ageless, eternal, and non-physical (meaning, you can't point out specific limbs or organs or features) kinda like God how he has no physical body except when he came in the form of Jesus on earth.

but mind you, I certainly would not mind a super physical body haha. It would be great to be Superman and live eternally with super powers and never age or get old or hurt

Hawkins · Apr 11, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
Your description is dependent on time-passage. I see no reason to think we need to apply temporal concepts and frame of mind to the biblical facts of "what comes after".

The concept actually sticks very well with the traditional Jewish concept about Hades and such. You may just need to dive deeper into what the Bible said. The bottomline is, it doesn't conflict what the Bible says.

SabbathBlessings · Apr 11, 2023

seeker2122 said:
Hmm. Very interesting! I find it hard to believe though because then the question would be, "how old would you be?" Your body that is being reformed would have to be either the 12 yr old you, the 30 yr old you, the 80 yr old you...etc. This is why I believe the resurrection doesn't mean our physical bodies as the bible says what came from the dust will return to the dust.....but resurrection meaning our spiritual bodies which will be ageless, eternal, and non-physical (meaning, you can't point out specific limbs or organs or features) kinda like God how he has no physical body except when he came in the form of Jesus on earth.

but mind you, I certainly would not mind a super physical body haha. It would be great to be Superman and live eternally with super powers and never age or get old or hurt

We are told we will be made like Jesus Philippians 3:20, 21 and after the resurrection the disciples were able to touch Him and Jesus ate food, so I think it will be bodies that are flesh and bone but spiritual. It says in heaven we will be building things and working in the vineyards. Isaiah 65:21, 22

seeker2122 · Apr 11, 2023

SabbathBlessings said:
We are told we will be made like Jesus Philippians 3:20, 21 and after the resurrection the disciples were able to touch Him and Jesus ate food, so I think it will be bodies that are flesh and bone but spiritual. It says in heaven we will be building things and working in the vineyards. Isaiah 65:21, 22

Does "body" in that context mean character? Our character will be perfected? Therefore in our new bodies, we will never sin, never be tempted, and never make any mistakes morally, ethically, theologically, biblically, etc.? Or does that passage only mean our physical bodies will be like Jesus but we will still have to work on having minds and hearts/character like Jesus? Or is that instantaneous? We will just suddenly have the mind, heart, and character of Jesus in a snap of a finger and forego all training and development?

SabbathBlessings · Apr 11, 2023

seeker2122 said:
Does "body" in that context mean character? Our character will be perfected? Therefore in our new bodies, we will never sin, never be tempted, and never make any mistakes morally, ethically, theologically, biblically, etc.? Or does that passage only mean our physical bodies will be like Jesus but we will still have to work on having minds and hearts/character like Jesus? Or is that instantaneous? We will just suddenly have the mind, heart, and character of Jesus in a snap of a finger and forego all training and development?

There will be no more sin or sorrows in heaven, but we will still have glorified bodies like Jesus who can physically do things.

Mark Quayle · Apr 11, 2023

seeker2122 said:
Hmm. Very interesting! I find it hard to believe though because then the question would be, "how old would you be?" Your body that is being reformed would have to be either the 12 yr old you, the 30 yr old you, the 80 yr old you...etc. This is why I believe the resurrection doesn't mean our physical bodies as the bible says what came from the dust will return to the dust.....but resurrection meaning our spiritual bodies which will be ageless, eternal, and non-physical (meaning, you can't point out specific limbs or organs or features) kinda like God how he has no physical body except when he came in the form of Jesus on earth.

but mind you, I certainly would not mind a super physical body haha. It would be great to be Superman and live eternally with super powers and never age or get old or hurt

But to say that it would "have to be either the 12 yr old you, the 30 yr old you, the 80 yr old you...etc." implies more validity to this temporal life than to the eternal life to come. The 12 yr old you, the 30 yr old you, etc, are at each stage only weak representations of the body to come. That body, in the final analysis is the only 'solid' real body. We are, in a certain sense, not yet ourselves. We are not complete beings, until God has made us into that for which he created us.

We give ourselves in this early stage too much of the wrong sort of respect; our self-esteem should be based on God's use of us, not on ourselves and this temporal existence.

Mark Quayle · Apr 11, 2023

SabbathBlessings said:
We are told we will be made like Jesus Philippians 3:20, 21 and after the resurrection the disciples were able to touch Him and Jesus ate food, so I think it will be bodies that are flesh and bone but spiritual. It says in heaven we will be building things and working in the vineyards. Isaiah 65:21, 22

I agree, but there needs to be recognized that right now "we see through a glass darkly". WE find a difference between the physical and the spiritual that is a good ways off the facts of the matter. THE REAL is what is (in my opinion, "already", but) not yet seen. This temporal is passing. The "flesh and bone" there is not like this we experience here, but the other way around. So also the spiritual, because we have yet to see his face.

Ha! "Riddles in the dark..."

RevealedTruths · Apr 11, 2023

seeker2122 said:
just curious....what if there is no physical body remaining ie. in the case of cremation? Will the resurrection return all the ashes together and form the physical body again? Thanks for your answer. I'm just doubtful of the bodily resurrection in terms of the afterlife. I do believe Jesus and anyone else that was raised from the dead by the power of God was a true bodily resurrection, but I'm doubtful our resurrection is going to be a bodily one because if I'm not mistaken, our resurrection of the body is a new body, a spiritual/eternal body. So in other words, I won't be walking around in heaven looking the way I did on earth. People won't see me in the form I am in now. They will see me by my spiritual body.

Is anything impossible for YHWH, the One that created all and is outside of Time?

Resurrected body is physical, flesh and bones. Any notion that it's something different = gnosticism.

Mark Quayle · Apr 11, 2023

seeker2122 said:
Does "body" in that context mean character? Our character will be perfected? Therefore in our new bodies, we will never sin, never be tempted, and never make any mistakes morally, ethically, theologically, biblically, etc.? Or does that passage only mean our physical bodies will be like Jesus but we will still have to work on having minds and hearts/character like Jesus? Or is that instantaneous? We will just suddenly have the mind, heart, and character of Jesus in a snap of a finger and forego all training and development?

We are even now, (but we don't yet see it as complete), the very body of Christ. That is not a symbolic statement, but a real thing we will see as true, when we are there. We are also going to see that we are the spotless Bride of Christ, and the beautiful Dwelling Place of God. All those things are perfection, without error or need of refinement.

Perhaps even more amazing, is the notion that when we are there, we are no longer going to think each of us as ourselves, (yet there is a name that each of us will have, that only God knows —very intimate, individual, and private!), but as members of each other, some one thing, and some another (the hand is not the foot, etc). And, I think, each of us would die from the intensity of activity, were God himself not our very sustenance —just as we would die from seeing him as he is, were we not become like him. So our bodies are not going to be like they are right now, but the "sons of God will be revealed".

We can parrot the words and form concepts, but we only have clues, not knowledge.

Mark Quayle · Apr 11, 2023

RevealedTruths said:
Is anything impossible for YHWH, the One that created all and is outside of Time?

Resurrected body is physical, flesh and bones. Any notion that it's something different = gnosticism.

Amen! Omnipotence, logically, necessarily, implies that time and indeed ALL FACT is made by (caused by) God. He is not subject to time, but time is subject to him. He does not exist as a separate entity, in the sense that time is an impersonal raw fact in its own right, but time belongs to his purposes for it. It is only a tool, as are all other things we currently may consider "brute fact".

Are they with Jesus now or asleep until he raise them later?

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