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Are there transitional fossils?

doubtingmerle

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You seem to be confusing species and specimens. You seem to be taking the traditional creationist argument that there will be many deleterious mutations in a species, and changing it to say there would be many mutant species. Not even creationists make this claim. I suspect you misunderstand them, and your misunderstanding is confusing everybody here.

Evolution predicts that thousands of individuals will have mutations that are neutral, slightly disadvantageous, or severely disadvantageous. Those with severe disadvantages may never survive to be born, or at least won't reproduce. These mutations don't do anything to the long term gene pool.

But evolution allows many neutral or even minutely disadvantageous mutations to survive. They are not making new species, just variations. And that is a good thing. What is neutral now may be an advantage if the situation changes. These variations allow a species to adapt quickly if a particular trait becomes important later.

Some of these changes may be advantageous only in the right combinations. Mutation A, B, and C may all be neutral, but a specimen with all 3 may have a clear advantage. Evolution allows these mutations to mix in the gene pool, and when a lucky individual ends up with all 3, it may give him a clear advantage. Natural selection could then kick in to make A, B, and C a near mandatory part of that gene pool.

But this thread is not about the mechanism of how evolution occurs, but whether transitional fossils exist. The evidence strongly shows they do.
 
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doubtingmerle

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yes. first, a lots of the suppose missing links arent even in the correct age. see this fig combine with the fossil record (the blue line):

The origin of birds

about 50% of those groups arent in the correct order of their suppose evolution.
Actually that is a good chart, and right on topic with the OP, so thanks for sharing it.

You seem to be saying that groups like the dromeosaurid appear later than archaeopteryx, even though dromeosaurids are an important link showing that evolution. The chart shows that dromeosurids, archaeopteryx, and modern bird all are thought to have descended from a common ancestor, represented with a red cross line on the chart. And your point seems to be that we don't have that ancestor. True. The common ancestor would have been one of millions of species alive back then. From that one common ancestor hundreds of cousin species of the birds along the dromeosaurid line could have survived. So if hundreds of species from the common ancestor through the dromoeosaurids existed, and we are fortunate to find several species along that branch, what are the odds that one of the species we find will be exactly that species where the branch off to archaeopteryx occurred? We were fortunate to find the species we did. So we cannot make a big deal that we didn't find the one at the branch. Nothing listed in this chart contradicts evolution.


we have found also this problematic fossil:

Protoavis - Wikipedia
Actually the problem here is with the poor quality of the fossils themselves, so we cannot be certain exactly which features it had, or even if we are looking at multiple species. The extreme interpretation is that creatures closer to birds existed slightly before archaeopteryx, which in no way refutes evolution. However I seem to be reading that the most likely scenario is that the features of this species are indeed more primitive than archaeopteryx.
and the last thing is that even if they was in the correct order, we cant say that they evolved. because we can say the same for those cars:

ferrari evolution‏ - חיפוש ב-Google:

Understood. Many see all the transitionals in the fossil record, and adopt a progressive creationist viewpoint. This says every step along the way was a separate creation by God, just like every Ferrari along the way was the separate creation of designers and craftsmen. Progressive creationism is not a denial of the fossil record. It just throws a different interpretation on it, allowing for many creation events over millions of years. Unfortunately, that view does not match well with either the Bible or what we know from the rest of science.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Right back at you. I don't see how you can conclude that we should see modest amount of extinct failed spieces.
Calling the fact that more than 99% of all the species that have ever existed on this planet are extinct a "modest amount" seems erroneous to me. However, in no way does the theory of evolution demand that some set number of species must go extinct at a minimum over a given amount of time. Extinction generally follows some change in the environment a species is native to, such as the introduction of a new predator or a disease wiping out their main food source. If environmental changes are kept to a minimum, the species is unlikely to go extinct, and its evolution will slow down significantly.
 
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xianghua

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no. it's not just one group but many. about 50% of them arent in the correct geologic layer. it's a lot. now: if a fossil in the correct layer is evidence for evolution, then a fossil in the wrong layer should by evidence against it.



no. some features of thise fossil are clearly more bird-like then those of the Archaeopteryx:

Protoavis - Wikipedia

"Though it existed far earlier than Archaeopteryx, its skeletal structure is allegedly more bird-like"



Understood. Many see all the transitionals in the fossil record, and adopt a progressive creationist viewpoint

not a progressive creation but just a creation without any evolution. i think its fit well with the scientific data.
 
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Papias

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1.) God created all the animal kinds (a kind is roughly a family)

In addition to the other problems sfs pointed out, this point in particular is unscriptural. God tells us what a "kind" is in Lev. 19:19, if one insists on a literal interpretation.

Lev. 19:19 'You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together.

To be able to mate them together, they must at least be the same species. Thus "kind" must be below species. Hence, "Kind" means "sub-species". There are many sub-species of cattle. So your "canine" example shows that evolution is possible beyond the "kind" level - that one kind can evolve into another. Thus, common descent is a possible way that God created.

2.) those original kinds adapted to best fit their environment. For example, all dogs, foxes, wolves (canines) share a similar ancestral lineage. This hypothetical ancestral canine was originally created by God.

But we clearly see that many animals are not made to "best fit their environment". For instance, many aspects of whales are better fit to land life than to ocean life. This shows their ancestry from land animals. There are many other examples of really bad "design" in other animals too. The upshot is that if God created by using evolution, then these are simply what happened and that's fine. On the other hand, if God micromanaged it, and designed each aspect by scratch, then a creationist is essentially saying that God is a pretty stupid designer - I wouldn't want to say that.

In Christ-

Papias
 
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doubtingmerle

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no. it's not just one group but many. about 50% of them arent in the correct geologic layer. it's a lot. now: if a fossil in the correct layer is evidence for evolution, then a fossil in the wrong layer should by evidence against it.
I said nothing about it being just one group. We have found limited fossils in many of the lines. That was not my point.

On the dromeosaurids line that I was referring to, I mentioned that we found dromeosaurids that are distant cousin species of archaeopteryx, but as these are distant descendents from the common ancestor, that is not at all unexpected that they are after archy. Evolution says nothing about groups of dinosaurs not being able to continue certain features millions of years after birds started evolving different features.

Find me a modern mammal skeleton deep in the Jurasiac, then we can talk. Until then, a dromeosaurid after archy is nothing to be concerned about.

no. some features of thise fossil are clearly more bird-like then those of the Archaeopteryx:

Protoavis - Wikipedia

"Though it existed far earlier than Archaeopteryx, its skeletal structure is allegedly more bird-like"
Can you explain how you got from their phrase "allegedly more bird-like" to "clearly more bird-like"? What justifies that jump?

The article you quote goes into detail of the poorly preserved evidence:

The post-cranial remains are as badly preserved, or worse, than the cranial elements, and their interpretation by Chatterjee[10] are in many cases unsubstantiated or speculative. Of the postcranial skeleton, Chatterjee has isolated the axial skeleton as displaying a suite of avian characters, including heterocoelus centra, hypapophyses and reduction of the neural spines. First and foremost, the preservation quality of the vertebrae is poor. While the centra are modified, they do not appear to be truly heterocoelus.[8] The presence of incipient hypapophyses in and of itself might be considered indicative of avian affinity, but their poor development and presence on vertebrae otherwise thoroughly non-avian, is most parsimoniously regarded as mild convergence until further material should be brought to light. The reduction of the neural spines is questionable.

Curiously, Gregory Paul has noted that the cervicals of Protoavis and drepanosaurs are astonishingly similar, such they are hardly distinguishable from one another.[8]:Fig. 10.7BaConsidering the modification of the drepanosaur neck for the purposes of snap-action predation, it becomes more likely that superficial similarities in the cervicals of both taxa are in fact only convergent with Aves.[8] Chatterjee does not identify the remaining vertebrae as particularly avian in their osteology.[10]

OK, so we have poorly preserved fossils. Some have claimed they are more bird-like in some features from archy, but most people seem to think not. Even if they were more birdlike than archy, that would not disprove evolution. That would merely indicate there were ancestors that had more birdlike features before archy, and archy was simply a very successful side line that maintained some skeletal features less like birds.

not a progressive creation but just a creation without any evolution. i think its fit well with the scientific data.


Wait, what? How can creation account for the hundreds of transitional fossils that were found? How can it account for all the mammal-like reptile fossils, for instance, that are found in layers millions of years before the first mammals?
 
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USincognito

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Then I think it would be useful for us to examine why you believe ToE would demand many failed homo species when no biologist thinks there should be.

ToE makes no demand that there should be many failed homo species: where did you learn it did?
He appears to be under the impression that every single mutation should produce a distinct species and that all of them should have left a fossil or two.
 
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Larniavc

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He appears to be under the impression that every single mutation should produce a distinct species and that all of them should have left a fossil or two.
Oh, I see. That's weird.

I guess that's where she's going wrong.
 
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HenryM

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I wrote what I meant - I was talking about species, not speciments. I was talking about impossibility of macroevolution based on what's available for us to see. To counter, you explained how mutations within species work, a microevolution. I don't dispute microevolution.
 
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HenryM

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If you have two somewhat complex lego toys, they both have many parts that are the same, and they are both assembled by the same processes at basic level (by joining one part to the other in specific ways). Does that mean that those two toys mutated one from another? It certainly does not. It just means they both came from the same factory.

And to go further with the lego analogy. If you take first toy and want to create different toy out of it, by process of random assembly of it's parts, you would have order of magnitude of failed toys (or shapes that exist as a new toy but are not good enough to be considered successful by commercial standards, i.e. market's natural selection) until you get the second toy right. If second toy really mutated from the first, by process of random assembly, with their faith being established through how good they'll do in the market, there would have to be a massive warehouse of unsuccessful toys somewhere.
 
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HenryM

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Oh, I see. That's weird. I guess that's where she's going wrong.

No, what's weird is that you ignore obvious complexity of randomly working with the pool of half a billion DNA information content in order to get from one successful species to another. I guess that's where you are going wrong.
 
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Larniavc

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No, what's weird is that you ignore obvious complexity of randomly working with the pool of half a billion DNA information content in order to get from one successful species to another. I guess that's where you are going wrong.
But with billions of 'bits' of DNA there are bound to be a few successful speciation events. That's just numbers.

With so many people playing the lottery some people are bound to win. But the large number of possible winning combinations we don't see large numbers winning.

The unsuccessful mutations won't show up as you would only have mutational in the fossil record that were numerous enough to have individuals fossilised.

Unsuccessful mutations do not fix within the population and thus are not numerous enough to have a decent chance of fossilisation.

I lot of people here are tell you the same thing.

Are you sure that you are not over investing in your hypothesis that there is some conscious control going in evolution?

If that were the case we would expect no failed species (unless the consciousness controlling this process was not good at guiding evolution).
 
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HenryM

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With billions of parts of DNA there would be a few ultimately successful speciation events and an order of magnitude ultimately unsuccessful speciation events (events that produce new species, but which would prove as clear failure after being exposed to the world for enough time). If macroevolution is true.

Step back and read what you are writing. You are proposing almost unspeakable complexity of mutation from amoeba to human, in random way, and ignoring massive (an order upon order of magnitude massive) amount of failed species that would existed but couldn't sustain their existence for a long time, because of world's natural selection.

Are you sure that you are not over investing in your hypothesis, for some reason?
 
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USincognito

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If you have two somewhat complex lego toys,{snip}

Why do some of these folks have such a hard time grasping that non-living things are not analogous to living things?
 
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USincognito

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Are you sure you understand genetics correctly?


1. Amoeba isn't a single taxon.
2. Humans didn't evolve from amoebas.
3. According to Timetree, the last common ancestor of H. sapiens and A. proteus lived about 1.4 billion years ago. That's a lot of time for mutations to happen.
TimeTree :: The Timescale of Life
 
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HenryM

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Why do some of these folks have such a hard time grasping that non-living things are not analogous to living things?

Exactly. A water, non-living thing, mixed with other non-living things, can't produce life. Thank you. Finally.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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What I am most enjoying about watching you trying to put sfs in his place is that you have no idea what his background is. Whilst I have no idea what your background is, I would feel quite confident saying that sfs has probably forgotten more about this subject than you have ever known. Perhaps you should find out who you are arguing with before you take things further.

ETA: @sfs I am not implying that you have poor memory! Figure of speech - for all I know you have a photographic memory and haven't forgotten a thing
 
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USincognito

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Exactly. A water, non-living thing, mixed with other non-living things, can't produce life. Thank you. Finally.

I know you think this riposte was clever, but it's just a red herring. Legos do not reproduce and pass on genetic material to offspring and thus are not analogous to living beings. Do you get it now?
 
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