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No opinion necessary: what does Yahweh Say in His Word (every Word, all of His Word).How would you in your opinion define "once saved, always saved"? Is it true or is it false doctrine? Would "wilful sinning" have any connection to this said doctrine"? How also about works or obedience? What roles if any would that doctrine play in how we will end up in eternity?
There is a osas doctrine that is false, on purpose, but that is not one to look at.
OrthodoxWiki said:Through theoria, the knowledge of God in Jesus Christ, human beings come to know and experience what it means to be fully human (the created image of God); through their communion with Jesus Christ God shares Himself with the human race, in order to conform them to all that God is in knowledge, righteousness and holiness. Theosis also asserts the complete restoration of all people (and of the entire creation), in principle. This is built upon the understanding of the atonement put forward by Irenaeus of Lyons, called "recapitulation."
For many fathers, theosis goes beyond simply restoring people to their state before the Fall of Adam and Eve, teaching that because Christ united the human and divine natures in his person, it is now possible for someone to experience closer fellowship with God than Adam and Eve initially experienced in the Garden of Eden, and that people can become more like God than Adam and Eve were at that time. Some Orthodox theologians go so far as to say that Jesus would have become incarnate for this reason alone, even if Adam and Eve had never sinned.
All of humanity is fully restored to the full potential of humanity because the Son of God took to Himself a human nature to be born of a woman, and takes to Himself also the sufferings due to sin (yet is not Himself a sinful man, and is God unchanged in His being). In Christ, the two natures of God and human are not two persons but one; thus, a union is effected in Christ, between all of humanity and God. So, the holy God and sinful humanity are reconciled in principle, in the one sinless man, Jesus Christ. (See Jesus's prayer as recorded in John 17.)
This reconciliation is made actual through the struggle (podvig in Russian) to conform to the image of Christ. Without the struggle, the praxis, there is no real faith; faith leads to action, without which it is dead. One must unite will, thought and action to God's will, His thoughts and His actions. A person must fashion his life to be a mirror, a true likeness of God. More than that, since God and humanity are more than a similarity in Christ but rather a true union, Christians' lives are more than mere imitation and are rather a union with the life of God Himself: so that, the one who is working out salvation, is united with God working within the penitent both to will and to do that which pleases God. ~Theosis - OrthodoxWiki
Fr Richard Rohr said:We do not normally see what we are not told to pay attention to. So I am telling you to pay attention to what Paul calls “the hidden wisdom” or “hidden mystery” (1 Corinthians 2:6-8) where “the fullness of divinity lives in embodied form” (see Colossians 2:9).
Like Francis, Bonaventure is positive, mystical, cosmic, and takes the mystery of incarnation to its logical conclusions. Jesus is the stand-in for everything else! Bonaventure starts very clearly: “Unless we are able to view things in terms of how they originate, how they are to return to their end, and how God shines forth in them, we will not be able to understand.” [1] His whole theology is often summed up as Emanation > Exemplification > Consummation.
This understanding of incarnation as a universal event with social implications had been much more common in the Eastern Fathers, like Irenaeus, Athanasius, and Maximus the Confessor. Unfortunately, these teachers were less seriously studied in the Western Church after the tragic schism of 1054. The 12th century Rhineland mystic Hildegard of Bingen, and later Francis of Assisi (1182-1226) and his early followers, brought back what I call “incarnational mysticism”—finding God through things instead of ideas, doctrines, and church services, which still persists as the mainline orthodoxy down to our time.
For Bonaventure, the perfection of God and God’s creation moves full circle, which is the meaning of resurrection. He intuited that Alpha and Omega had to be the same, and the lynchpin holding it all together was the “Christ Mystery” visible everywhere—the essential unity of matter and spirit, humanity and divinity. The Christ Mystery is thus the template, model, and goal for all of creation. The end is included and the trajectory set from the very beginning. Likewise for Duns Scotus, Jesus is not plan B, or a mere historic problem solver; he is Plan A from the very start. Christian faith is not merely in Jesus or merely in Christ, but precisely in Jesus Christ—both!
The theology of Francis, Duns Scotus, and Bonaventure was never about trying to placate a distant or angry God, earn forgiveness, or find some abstract theory of justification. They were all about cosmic optimism, deep time, and implanted hope! Salvation was social more than individual, just like the Old Testament covenants. Once we lost this kind of inherent mysticism, Christianity became preoccupied with fear, unworthiness, and guilt much more than delighting in an all-pervasive plan that was already and always in place.
As Paul’s school says, “Before the world was made, God chose us, chose us in Christ” (Ephesians 1:4). The problem was solved from the beginning. Any Gospel of hope must start with the “original blessing” announced in Genesis 1 instead of the problem described in Genesis 3. It invites us beyond the negative notion of history as being a “fall from grace” to the long and positive view of history as a slow emergence/evolution into ever-greater consciousness.~https://cac.org/full-circle-salvation-2017-03-27/
Franciscan Theology said:Page 12-17 of 30 cover the theology of (Blessed) John Duns Scotus, OFM. He had considerable influence on Catholic thought.
"In John's writing, though not as well organized as the "Summa" of Thomas Aquinas, the Franciscan School moved away from atonement-based theology, which had become the primary theology of the Dominican School. After many years of debate, the Dominican based approach would become the most widely held theology within the Church, though the position of the Franciscan School as secondary remained and still remains today a fully accepted Tradition or alternate theology within the Church, so much so that many of our Roman Pontiffs became members of the Secular Franciscan Order."
"It was the desire of God to embrace and in turn be embraced, and this desire, not the sin of man, was the reason for the coming of Jesus, the fulfillment of the intention that became creation. Bl. John Scotus expressed his understanding in his work, the "Primacy of Christ", the theological foundation that stems from the lived reality of Francis of Assisi."
"Scotus places Jesus and the Incarnation firmly at the absolute core of Christian belief. Not starting with the need for a sin offering as we still do today, (we Franciscans so often start here too), but at a beginning based on a total and complete free expression of God's love and otherness. Sure we don't deny that Jesus redeemed us and died because of sin, but Jesus was always God's first intention or master plan and would have become incarnate (taken on our humanity) regardless of sin or anything else."
Blessed Duns Scotus:
You are the unique and specific one that is the apple of God's eye.~Franciscan Theology
- The Incarnation is not a divine thought or reaction to any event, but the cornerstone of the whole plan of creation.
- Everything that was, is & ever will be is based in Christ
- The relationship between divinity & humanity, God & humanity, are intrinsically united and all creation is centered in Jesus.
- Creation is based on God's absolute freedom and love, e.g. God's very nature, and not a need.
How can you make that sort of declaration without a definition?Well, whatever it means,
most of the world never experiences it.
That narrows down those it might apply to a lot.
The Bible says so.How can you make that sort of declaration without a definition?
Specifically about salvation....or are you imposing beliefs onto the text?The Bible says so.
Brian Zahnd's blog post said:What is salvation?
There’s a question for you!
I think most attempts to answer this question tend to shrink salvation — to get it small enough so that a person can possess it; so they can hold on to it like a ticket or put it in their wallet like a kind of laminated license. But the only way to get salvation small enough for you to possess is to reduce it to a few aspects. So that if salvation is reduced to going to heaven when you die, then it’s easy enough to think of it as a ticket or a backstage pass. But that’s like confusing an American passport with America. I can put a passport in my pocket, but I can’t put America in my pocket.
Salvation is not an object you own — it’s a life you enter and live.
Q. What is salvation?
A. It is the kingdom of God.
I’m convinced this is the answer. Not only is it intensely biblical, it is the message of the Bible. The Bible is the story of a world gone wrong and God’s strategy, or as Dallas Willard calls it, the divine conspiracy, to make it right again. God’s strategy or divine conspiracy is the kingdom of heaven. This is salvation.
To use my former analogy: Salvation is not the passport of heaven, salvation is the kingdom of heaven.
And what is the kingdom of God? It’s God’s government by which He will make right a world gone wrong.
So how does one get in on this? Or we might say, how does one get saved?
By rethinking your life, renouncing your allegiance to the false system of the fallen world and transferring your loyalty and allegiance to the crucified and risen King with this confession: Jesus is Lord. Then you begin to learn and live the new way of life by following Jesus with his other followers. This is how you enter the vast expanse of salvation.
Viewing salvation as a vast expanse you enter instead of an object you possess may seem like a subtle distinction for you, but for me it’s been a profound paradigm shift.~What Is Salvation? - Brian Zahnd
Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America said:The reception of the gift of salvation is not a one-time event but a life-time process. St. Paul employs the verb “to save” (sozesthai) in the past tense (“we have been saved,” Rom 8:24; Eph 2:5); in the present tense (“we are being saved,” 1 Cor 1:18; 15:2), and in the future tense (“we will be saved,” Rom 5:10). He can think even of justification as a future event and part of the final judgment (Rom 2:13, 16). For Paul, Christians are involved in a lifetime covenant with God in which we work, planting and watering, but it is “only God who gives the growth” (1 Cor 3:7). We are “co-workers with God” (synergoi Theou, 1 Cor 3:9; 1 Thess 3:2). (Not “co-workers under God” as some translations would have it). The mystery of salvation is a duet, not a solo. It is a life-time engagement with God. It has ups and downs, twists and turns, with opportunities to grow in the love of God, knowing that we can turn to Him again and again and receive forgiveness and a new birth. When we come to Christ as sinners, we have no works to offer to Him, but only faith and repentance. But once we come to Him and receive the gift of salvation, we enter into a sacred covenant to honor Him with good works. We read in Ephesians: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God . . . [We are] created in Christ Jesus for good works” (Eph 2:8-10).~How Are We Saved? - Theology - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
No idea what you are talking about.Specifically about salvation....or are you imposing beliefs onto the text?
Can you define all the religions before Noah built the ARK by Yahweh's Instructions?How can you make that sort of declaration without a definition?
I'm talking about this statement of yours (referring to defining what "salvation" means):No idea what you are talking about.
yeshuaslavejeff said:Well, whatever it means,
most of the world never experiences it.
That narrows down those it might apply to a lot.
That's saved from the flood.everyone knows how many people were saved, right ?
RIGHT.That's saved from the flood.
Sorry, no. That is your own presumption. (no worries)I'm talking about this statement of yours (referring to defining what "salvation" means):
You said, "the Bible says so" ....and I don't recall any verse that states that....so you must be adding in your own presumptions.
Now you can refer back to what the Bible says without the confusion. (I hope).I'm talking about this statement of yours (referring to defining what "salvation" means):
You said, "the Bible says so" ....and I don't recall any verse that states that....so you must be adding in your own presumptions.
Which Scripture are you referring to (without that, it's only an unsupported statement)?Now you can refer back to what the Bible says without the confusion. (I hope).
"The Bible says so" is simply referring to the well known Scriptures
and no presumption on anyone's part.
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