Are there any SDAs aout there who do not agree with the state of the dead doctrine

[Lebesgue]

This was one of the reasons why I left the SDA church.

Even during the 14 years I was an SDA, I could not bring myself to accept their state of the dead doctrine.

I believe when you die in Y'shua, your soul goes to be with Him and awaits His return when He will reuinte it with a resurrected, glofied body.

Y'shua's death on the Cross and Resurrection RESTORED that which Adam lost. When we accept Y'shua as Messiah and Saviour, something happens to our soul which makes it IMMORTAL. It is not inherently immortal but immortal ONLY because of Y'shua.

And there is so much in the B'rit Hadeshah (New Testament) to back this up.

Y'shua said those who believe in Him will NEVER die.

Y'shua told the thief on the cross next to Him that accepted Him, "Today you will be with me in Paradise".

Sha'ul made the statement, "Absent from the boy and present with Christ".

Y'shua GAVE us immoratality of our souls by His death on the Cross and Resurrection.

I cannot accept or agree with the SDA state of the dead doctrine and never could even when I was an SDA.

Perhaps I should have been vocal about it early on and gotten myself disfellowhipped rather than spending 14 miserable years in the SDA church?

Shalom,

Lebesgue

 

[honorthesabbath]

Well Lesb--since you claim to have been in the SDA church for 14yrs., then you SHOULD know all of our reasons for why we believe in the mortality of man. Do you think we have any more to add to it then?

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I disagree with the SDA surety of soul sleep. There is some good arguments on both sides with verses from the Bible to back up their position. Martin Luther appears to be a soul sleep proponent and Calvin argued against Luther on the issue.

Is it all that important? I don't think so. The Bible condemns the idea of seeking knowledge from the dead for no doubt a number of good reasons whether you think they are asleep or in heaven why should they know anything anyway.

As Ecclesiastes writer says who knows what happens to the spirit of a man or animal. We don't even understand what a spirit or what a soul is. We have vague notions built upon ideas which may or may not be right.

I see no real problem with either position. But as always the position can lead to other positions such as the ones Luther fought against such as purgatory or praying to Saints as if Saints have some power to sway the angry God.

In the end for the Christian neither position matters much at all. Whether one sleeps for a thousand years the next thing they know is Christ and that would be the next thing that the believer who dies and goes to be with the Lord knows also.

 

[Lebesgue]

Well Lesb--since you claim to have been in the SDA church for 14yrs., then you SHOULD know all of our reasons for why we believe in the mortality of man. Do you think we have any more to add to it then?

Honour, I know WHY SDAs believe in soul sleep. What I am asking is if there are any that don't.

I didn't even in the 14 years I was an SDA but kept my mouth shut about it out of fear of being disfellowshipped.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

 

[OntheDL]

This was one of the reasons why I left the SDA church.

Even during the 14 years I was an SDA, I could not bring myself to accept their state of the dead doctrine.

I did not know it would take 14+ years to understand this simple doctrine.

I believe when you die in Y'shua, your soul goes to be with Him and awaits His return when He will reuinte it with a resurrected, glofied body.

Scriptural support?

Y'shua's death on the Cross and Resurrection RESTORED that which Adam lost. When we accept Y'shua as Messiah and Saviour, something happens to our soul which makes it IMMORTAL. It is not inherently immortal but immortal ONLY because of Y'shua.

And there is so much in the B'rit Hadeshah (New Testament) to back this up.

Y'shua said those who believe in Him will NEVER die.

So didn't Paul and Peter die?

Did David believe in the promised messiah???

Why hasn't he ascended?

Acts 2
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

When did David expect to meet the Lord? At the end of the great controversy!

Y'shua told the thief on the cross next to Him that accepted Him, "Today you will be with me in Paradise".

If Jesus promised the thief that same Friday he will be with Him in paradise, then wasn't Jesus a lier when He told Mary Magdalene on the following Sunday that He hadn't ascended yet???

John 15
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Sha'ul made the statement, "Absent from the boy and present with Christ".

Of course. When you die, your thoughts perish. The next conscience moment you know it will be with the Lord after the resurrection. Just ask any patients woken up from coma. They never knew years had passed during their coma.

Psalm 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Y'shua GAVE us immoratality of our souls by His death on the Cross and Resurrection.

Scriptural support???

On the contrary, the bible tells us immortality will be given after the judgment in the end.

Daniel 12
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 14
2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Where did Jesus say He will take the souls with Him and reunite with the bodies?

Eccl 9
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Where in the bible it says the soul or the spirit has its own intelligence and will live on after the body dies? No where in the bible. That is a heathen mythology!

Where in the the bible says when Christ comes back He will come with the immortal souls of the dead believers?

I cannot accept or agree with the SDA state of the dead doctrine and never could even when I was an SDA.

Perhaps I should have been vocal about it early on and gotten myself disfellowhipped rather than spending 14 miserable years in the SDA church?

That's ok. We don't bind your hands and take you where you don't want to go. Jesus doesn't do that either.

 

[reddogs]

This was one of the reasons why I left the SDA church.

Even during the 14 years I was an SDA, I could not bring myself to accept their state of the dead doctrine.

I believe when you die in Y'shua, your soul goes to be with Him and awaits His return when He will reuinte it with a resurrected, glofied body.

Y'shua's death on the Cross and Resurrection RESTORED that which Adam lost. When we accept Y'shua as Messiah and Saviour, something happens to our soul which makes it IMMORTAL. It is not inherently immortal but immortal ONLY because of Y'shua.

And there is so much in the B'rit Hadeshah (New Testament) to back this up.

Y'shua said those who believe in Him will NEVER die.

Y'shua told the thief on the cross next to Him that accepted Him, "Today you will be with me in Paradise".

Sha'ul made the statement, "Absent from the boy and present with Christ".

Y'shua GAVE us immoratality of our souls by His death on the Cross and Resurrection.

I cannot accept or agree with the SDA state of the dead doctrine and never could even when I was an SDA.

Perhaps I should have been vocal about it early on and gotten myself disfellowhipped rather than spending 14 miserable years in the SDA church?

Shalom,

Lebesgue

Again my brother, just because you disagree with a doctrine or belief doesnt change it. Give us some text or basis from scripture why you have a issue with it..

Red

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Again my brother, just because you disagree with a doctrine or belief doesnt change it. Give us some text or basis from scripture why you have a issue with it..

Red

It is probably not worth going into, if you notice he did give a few Biblical reasons. Unfortunately most Adventists don't take the time to look at the other interpretations so even when those ideas are given they don't realize they are based on Biblical grounds.

 

[TrustAndObey]

I have a lot of Messianic friends (20+) and only 2 believe you go to heaven or hell immediately after death.

So this is an interesting state of affairs I'd say.

 

[JonMiller]

I don't beleive in a soul. I see no evidence for it, and it's beleif isn't required for other beleifs that I wish to have, nor is it required to have a consitent Christian set of beleifs. Therefore, I don't beleif in a soul.

JM

 

[mva1985]

I definitely believe in our doctrine on the state of the dead.

 

[TrustAndObey]

I don't beleive in a soul. I see no evidence for it, and it's beleif isn't required for other beleifs that I wish to have, nor is it required to have a consitent Christian set of beleifs. Therefore, I don't beleif in a soul.

JM

I believe in a soul. In fact, the bible says a soul can eat food, touch things, lie, and die. We don't "have" souls, we ARE souls.

I think I might ask some of my Messianic friends from this site to pop by. The truth is that there is no definite teaching on this in the Messianic church, but I think Lebesgue would be interested to know that more Messianics believe in sleeping until the resurrection than his point of view.

 

[TrustAndObey]

I just wanted to add that the word translated to soul in the Old Testament ("nephesh") is also translated to "dead body" in quite a few scriptures.

 

[TrustAndObey]

I definitely believe in our doctrine on the state of the dead.

You and me both, brother!

 

[Lebesgue]

I believe in a soul. In fact, the bible says a soul can eat food, touch things, lie, and die. We don't "have" souls, we ARE souls.

I think I might ask some of my Messianic friends from this site to pop by. The truth is that there is no definite teaching on this in the Messianic church, but I think Lebesgue would be interested to know that more Messianics believe in sleeping until the resurrection than his point of view.

I am aware that many Messianics would agree with the SDA state of the dead doctrine. My synagogue does not teach that, but rather believes much like most evangelical Protestants do about the hereafter.

Interstingly when the head Elder at my former SDA Church questioned me about what I believe about the state of the dead after I left and became Messianic, I told him than many Messianics DO agree with the SDA position, I don't and never have even when I was SDA.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

 

[Jon0388g]

I did not know it would take 14+ years to understand this simple doctrine.


Scriptural support?

So didn't Paul and Peter die?

Did David believe in the promised messiah???

Why hasn't he ascended?

Acts 2
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

When did David expect to meet the Lord? At the end of the great controversy!


If Jesus promised the thief that same Friday he will be with Him in paradise, then wasn't Jesus a lier when He told Mary Magdalene on the following Sunday that He hadn't ascended yet???

John 15
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Of course. When you die, your thoughts perish. The next conscience moment you know it will be with the Lord after the resurrection. Just ask any patients woken up from coma. They never knew years had passed during their coma.

Psalm 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Scriptural support???

On the contrary, the bible tells us immortality will be given after the judgment in the end.

Daniel 12
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 14
2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Where did Jesus say He will take the souls with Him and reunite with the bodies?

Eccl 9
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Where in the bible it says the soul or the spirit has its own intelligence and will live on after the body dies? No where in the bible. That is a heathen mythology!

Where in the the bible says when Christ comes back He will come with the immortal souls of the dead believers?

That's ok. We don't bind your hands and take you where you don't want to go. Jesus doesn't do that either.

Great post DL. It's a shame it'll most probably fall on deaf ears.


I started a Bible study on the word "soul" just last Sabbath. I found that the Bible gives us a sort of equation for what a soul is:

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Genesis 2:7


Flesh + Spirit(breath) = Living soul


Take away either the flesh or the spirit and the soul ceases to live. A Biblical formula that is foolproof.


Jon

 

[TrustAndObey]

I am aware that many Messianics would agree with the SDA state of the dead doctrine. My synagogue does not teach that, but rather believes much like most evangelical Protestants do about the hereafter.

If many Messianics believe it, then you can't really call it "the SDA state of the dead doctrine" now can you? It's Biblical teaching believed by many, not a specific church's doctrine...which you just proved.

Interstingly when the head Elder at my former SDA Church questioned me about what I believe about the state of the dead after I left and became Messianic, I told him than many Messianics DO agree with the SDA position, I don't and never have even when I was SDA.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

All my Messianic friends (and as I mentioned, I have over 20 of them...probably closer to 30) have told me that it isn't really "taught" either way. It's just agreed that people within the Messianic structure feel differently about it so it's best not to teach it at all.

 

[TrustAndObey]

I'm glad the church I belong to DOES spell out exactly what it is we believe and we don't skirt around this issue.

When I read for myself what a soul IS, and realized that truth, it led me straight to a church that teaches that.

 

[Lebesgue]

If many Messianics believe it, then you can't really call it "the SDA state of the dead doctrine" now can you? It's Biblical teaching believed by many, not a specific church's doctrine...which you just proved.



All my Messianic friends (and as I mentioned, I have over 20 of them...probably closer to 30) have told me that it isn't really "taught" either way. It's just agreed that people within the Messianic structure feel differently about it so it's best not to teach it at all.

Yes, it really isn't "taught" in Messianic congregations either way, there is more leeway than in SDA church.
But most of the people I know at my synagogue believe as I do which is the same belief in the afterlife that most Protestants have.

I don't really see the Bible as saying for sure one way or the other, it can be interpreted either way. I DO believe Y'shua changed things and belief in Him activates something that gives us immortality of the soul.

One of the last SDA sermons I heard it was said that part of the reason for the state of the dead doctrine is so that Adventists won't be fooled by spirits posing as "departed" loved ones that would tell them not to believe what Ellen White said or Adventist doctrine.
Yes, I ACTUALLY heard this in an SDA sermon I'm not kidding. It was one of the very last SDA sermons I ever heard.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

 

[OntheDL]

I'm glad the church I belong to DOES spell out exactly what it is we believe and we don't skirt around this issue.

When I read for myself what a soul IS, and realized that truth, it led me straight to a church that teaches that.

It seems an eventual path for Messianic to become more legalistic and rabbinical (from the Messianics that I have met and talked to). And the rabbinical Judaism does teach the Immortality of Soul. Check the (Babylonian) Talmud the holiest book of Judaism.

 

[OntheDL]

Yes, it really isn't "taught" in Messianic congregations either way, there is more leeway than in SDA church.
But most of the people I know at my synagogue believe as I do which is the same belief in the afterlife that most Protestants have.

I don't really see the Bible as saying for sure one way or the other, it can be interpreted either way. I DO believe Y'shua changed things and belief in Him activates something that gives us immortality of the soul.

The bible does NOT teach two conflicting doctrines. That's the classical example of self-worship. Because you define the religion and the god you 'worship' base on your own interpretation of the bible.