Are the Jews saved...

Bruce101 · Nov 11, 2005

I used to be in prison ministry. My wife says that was the only way I could see my friends, LOL.Anyway, the question of suicide came up. People commit it for whatever reasons, and sometimes the hell that some folks have lived will drive a person to self murder. (not condoning it, by any means).
I found the answer to be one that applies in many situations.
We have our biases and opinions, and they don't amount to squat!

God is a just and righteous God.
Tempering justice with mercy.
God will do what is right.

Bruce

Bruce101 · Nov 11, 2005

newlamb said:
I refuse to believe this revisionist history. Hitler and the Gestapo were occultists who would have, if they could have, perverted even Christ to their evil ends. Fortunately G-d will take only so many lies.

Jesus had absolutely nothing to do with Germany, the concentration camps, the SS, Hitler, etc. The Hitler was a Christian card doesn't work, if it ever did.

Not revisionist.
Factual.
Down through the wears Christianity has presented the love of Messiah on the edge of a sword. And that has been the problem, along with the Christian presentation of a Torah breaking religion.
The presentation of Christianity has been one that was done very sloppily.
Now you may say that those were not true Christians, and you would be correct. But it does not matter.

Bruce

Tishri1 · Nov 11, 2005

Talmidah said:
Would these statements be at least somewhat representative of the beliefs of the people in this forum regarding salvation of the Jews?

Talmidah, are those quotes from different Congregations and Organizations? Or People in this forum?

Vaneeza Malkah · Nov 12, 2005

There is no-one who can say who is to go to heaven or to hell for that matter as it's not our position to say. Can one blame a Jew for rejection of the messiah based on false-christian doctrine (lies)? I don't. Can one say all Jews will go to heaven because they are Jewish in herritage? I don't know that I would say that is a truthfull teaching.

Higher Truth · Nov 12, 2005

Henaynei said:
I believe that observant Jewish people call upon His Name at least 3 times a day (much more and more consistantly than most Christians who believe they are saved) when they pray the Shakrit, Minkha and Maariv - When they call upon the Ben HaMevorakh or the Right Hand of G-d, etc. for deliverance and salvation.

As we Messianics are more aware than the rest of the Community of Faith, "calling upon His Name" is not contingent upon uttering some specific phonetic combination. Just as His ways are higher than ours, so "calling on Him" entails something much deeper than exacting phonetization - and I believe that Jews with true kavannah have been calling on Him for millenia and are thus saved.

The Jewish people were praying three times a day during the babylonin captivity:

Daniel 6

10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.

This was long before the Gospels were written, so why then did Jesus instruct Nicodemus that all had to be born again ? The Catholic church now shares the same view, that all good people can get into heaven. This is not scriptural.

visionary · Nov 12, 2005

There is no-one who can say who is to go to heaven or to hell for that matter as it's not our position to say.

No that is the truth, it is not up to us, and discussions as to which party get invited to the Lord's wedding and which are left out is something that we need to leave in the groom's hands. I believe it is very important to be on good terms with the groom in order to be invited to His Wedding. Since the bride isn't throwing the party, and no one knows which bride is the true bride, it would be foolish to line yourself up with any party here on earth and have your faith resting on that. You could easily be cast out.... with the groom saying "I never knew you".

Henaynei · Nov 12, 2005

Higher Truth said:
The Jewish people were praying three times a day during the babylonin captivity:

Daniel 6

10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.

This was long before the Gospels were written, so why then did Jesus instruct Nicodemus that all had to be born again ? The Catholic church now shares the same view, that all good people can get into heaven. This is not scriptural.

LOL, I did not say all Jews, much less all people....

BarbB · Nov 13, 2005

DavidHaCohen said:
Newlamb,
I'm not questioning that. And in fact whether or not Hitler was a Christian is a moot point here.

But those Jews like my zeide who were killed in the camps heard from the nazi soldiers that they were being put to death in the name of Jesus. The impacts of such affirmation on the Jewish people, who had already been murdered by the thousands in crusades and inquisitions, cannot be overlooked. I know that Jesus didn't tell anyone to kill the Jews and I also know that Hitler was not a real Christian but how can you possibly want someone who's been to the camps to believe in Jesus? Right or wrong, they were tortured and butchered in the name of Jesus. And it's not their fault. They didn't go to the camps by their own free will. And then G-d comes and throws them IN HELL? If that is true, then such G-d is not worthy of our love. That is definetly not the loving Father of Israel.

Dave

David - I'm sorry for my response - it was a knee-jerk response that I usually reserve for atheists! You are, of course, in a much better position than I to know what was being said to the prisoners. Perhaps the everyday soldier who was more likely to be at least a nominal Christian believed this.

BarbB · Nov 13, 2005

Tishri1 said:
Dave, that is why I ask the question...I want to see what other people think about you, to see if people think you are saved if you have faith in God...I believe there are misconceptions about how we all feel and am hoping that those misconceptions are all straightened out here...Thanks for being so honest about how you feel....

I apologize for offending any members here. I'm going to edit my post. I am ashamed of the way I said it.

Henaynei · Nov 13, 2005

newlamb said:
I apologize for offending any members here. I'm going to edit my post. I am ashamed of the way I said it.

know that you are loved and you are not alone

we've all had that problem, foot -in-mouth is a common human failing - the only thing that keeps it from being pandemic is that happily it is not contagious, usually - and brushing helps, afterwards

Mary_Magdalene · Nov 14, 2005

Higher Truth said:
The Jewish people were praying three times a day during the babylonin captivity:

Daniel 6

10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.

This was long before the Gospels were written, so why then did Jesus instruct Nicodemus that all had to be born again ? The Catholic church now shares the same view, that all good people can get into heaven. This is not scriptural.

Amen, HT.

Not to diminish the things that the Jews have gone thru in history, but then where does this end? What about the alter boy who gets molested by the priest? Does he get in without Jesus? What about the kids who get abused and beatings from their parents in the name of the Word of G-d? Do they get in without Christ?

No.

I think we all go thru things in this life and that those things are a direct result from sin and from Satan. How do you think Satan was thinking during the Holocost? I bet he was enjoying every minute of it-especially the "Hitler is a Christian" standpoint, knowing that this would for decades turn people away from the only source of salvation-Christ Jesus.

G-d doesnt change based on all the junk His people have to go thru. The source of salvation doesnt change either depending on who you are.

Tishri1 · Nov 14, 2005

newlamb said:
I apologize for offending any members here. I'm going to edit my post. I am ashamed of the way I said it.

your awesome for admitting that....forgiven

Tishri1 · Nov 14, 2005

Bruce101 said:
Down through the wears Christianity has presented the love of Messiah on the edge of a sword.

Bruce

that's it in a nutshell...how can we help change this picture?

Henaynei · Nov 14, 2005

I don't think anyone is suggesting any one get in (to Heaven) because to abuse or misunderstanding

But if salvation is predicated on "Calling Upon His Name for Salvation" and on "Trusting in His will and Redemption" then many Jews are indeed saved without ever uttering "Jesus" or "Yeshua" - for the reasons stated in my above post

DavidHaCohen · Nov 14, 2005

Actually, if we consider that Yeshuah in Hebrew means 'salvation', and apparently you Christians believe it to mean G-d's own salvation, then yes, we Jews call upon G-d's Yeshuah at least 3 times a day that I can remember

Henaynei said:
But if salvation is predicated on "Calling Upon His Name for Salvation" and on "Trusting in His will and Redemption" then many Jews are indeed saved without ever uttering "Jesus" or "Yeshua" - for the reasons stated in my above post

visionary · Nov 14, 2005

God knows the heart.... It is His salvation, and it is our acceptance of the free gift that make it ours and anyone elses.

Tishri1 · Nov 15, 2005

DavidHaCohen said:
Actually, if we consider that Yeshuah in Hebrew means 'salvation', and apparently you Christians believe it to mean G-d's own salvation, then yes, we Jews call upon G-d's Yeshuah at least 3 times a day that I can remember

From your lips to my heart DavidHaCohen

simchat_torah · Nov 15, 2005

DavidHaCohen said:
Actually, if we consider that Yeshuah in Hebrew means 'salvation', and apparently you Christians believe it to mean G-d's own salvation, then yes, we Jews call upon G-d's Yeshuah at least 3 times a day that I can remember

Curious, which Siddur are you using?

-Yafet

DavidHaCohen · Nov 15, 2005

Well, I use a Chabad Siddur. It's in the Amidah... [size=-1]"Melech Memit Umechayei umiatzmiyach yeshuah" ;-)[/size]

simchat_torah said:
Curious, which Siddur are you using?

-Yafet

DavidHaCohen · Nov 15, 2005

Actually, the concept of being born again predates Christianity by a wide margin. In Judaism when one converts it is said that the soul made teshuvah to Judaism and therefore was reborn Jewish.

When I read that passage of your New Testament if I think in terms of the religious context of that time I understand Jesus, the Jew, to be saying that Nicodemus needed to do teshuvah. Maybe Nicodemus was someone who thought that his status as a rabbi granted him a special relationship with the Almighty. In Judaism too without repentance one cannot see G-d.

Dave

Higher Truth said:
This was long before the Gospels were written, so why then did Jesus instruct Nicodemus that all had to be born again ? The Catholic church now shares the same view, that all good people can get into heaven. This is not scriptural.

Are the Jews saved...

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