Are the creation days literal 24 hours? by Fr. Gabriel Wissa

dwb001 said:

Nope... young Earth yes... but the others nope.

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"Reason" leads one away from a strictly literal interpretation of creation accounts in Genesis. I don't see how anyone can accept the many fruits of science, reason and geology while also rejecting it.

Akita Suggagaki said:

"Reason" leads one away from a strictly literal interpretation of creation accounts in Genesis. I don't see how anyone can accept the many fruits of science, reason and geology while also rejecting it.

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Reason... as in reasonable.
Your statement does not even make sense. Think ot out more before replying.

Just because you can't see something does not make it inconceivable for others.

dwb001 said:

Reason... as in reasonable.
Your statement does not even make sense. Think ot out more before replying.

Just because you can't see something does not make it inconceivable for others.

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Because something is conceivable for others does not make it true. People believe all sorts of things. I am glad you at least draw a line with flat earth and sold dome sky.

Akita Suggagaki said:

Because something is conceivable for others does not make it true. People believe all sorts of things. I am glad you at least draw a line with flat earth and sold dome sky.

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Some things are descriptive on certain levels that are invalid on a different scale. The Earth is flat... until you get high enough. The sky is a dome when seen from below. Perspective changes some things. Not all but some.

Akita Suggagaki said:

Who says Moses did the documentation?

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Traditionally, Moses is credited with the documentation of the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, also known as the Torah or Pentateuch. This belief is foundational in Jewish, Christian, and Muslim traditions. According to the Bible and related religious texts, Moses is regarded as a central figure in the receiving and recording of the laws, commandments, and teachings from God.

Diamond7 said:

Traditionally, Moses is credited with the documentation of the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, also known as the Torah or Pentateuch. This belief is foundational in Jewish, Christian, and Muslim traditions. According to the Bible and related religious texts, Moses is regarded as a central figure in the receiving and recording of the laws, commandments, and teachings from God.

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And he records his own death? Deuteronomy 34:1-8

ByTheSpirit said:

The Jews believed they were literal days for they observed the Sabbath as a day, just as the Lord directed them.

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Indeed - and it is clear from Ex 20:11 that Gen 2:2-3 was taken literally by the writer and his contemporary readers.

Akita Suggagaki said:

And he records his own death? Deuteronomy 34:1-8

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The Bible is clear that Josuha wrote that.

1. Numbers 27:18-23 (NIV): Moses requested God to appoint a leader to succeed him. God instructed Moses to commission Joshua, stating, "Take Joshua son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit of leadership, and lay your hand on him."
2. Deuteronomy 31:7-8 (NIV): Moses encouraged and strengthened Joshua before the people, emphasizing that God would go with Joshua as He had gone with Moses. Moses then summoned Joshua and publicly commissioned him to lead the people.
3. Deuteronomy 31:14-15 (NIV): God spoke to Moses about his impending death and reassured him that Joshua would lead the people into the land that God had promised them.

Akita Suggagaki said:

Eyewitnesses of creation? Adam and Eve?

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See P;J Wiseman on Genesis. The toledoth appears to be a colophon according to writing styles on tablets.


As for Gen 1 with only a partial colophon, count how many times "God said". 10.

On day 4 there is a repetition of heavens and earth, suggesting thee was a tablet break there. The phrase at the bottom of one tablet is repeated at the top of the next to indicate order.

The alleged discrepancy between the two accounts of creation is resolved by moving the end of the pericope to v.5. The reason for doing so: it clarifies which of the previous 'heavens and earth' is the bookend to it. It is he one before plants. Plants happened on the third day. So it says the 'heavens and earth' referred to is on Day One.

God handed Moses ten sayings on tablets. Perhaps he handed Adam the account of creation.

When the tablets were found, other theories were so well established it was not considered. Scholars were also distracted with WWII.

Diamond7 said:

The oral tradition is far from theory. As I pointed out already, we would not have our Bible today if it were not for the oral tradition. For us the problem is when they add to the Bible. They have something like 316 commandments that they follow.

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The problem is tradition. The Bible itself (canon) is man-made. When you say you believe the Bible, which one? Protestant, Catholic? it's all tradition. In Hebrew the formation of words works like a security paper. Words get their meaning from combined meaning of the letters. Since God used words to create; he needed an alphabet first. The alphabet is a message from God from before creation. I trust the writings that Jesus used. I trust them in verifiable Hebrew with word formations.

The tradition is that the Greek church did not read Hebrew. Augustine claimed the Septuagint was more reliable than the original Hebrew. That is plain silly and no one would accept that in a court of law. Yet tradition chooses Augustine. He also said that scripture was literal-historical, yet Jesus said it all spoke of him. Tradition chose Augustine.

Simply repeating something for 2000 years doesn't make it 'far from theory'.

Believing Christ, Gen 1 is about him. Day One speaks of his character being Love and Holy. The fourth day he makes us to be holy and his testimony (lights in the firmament). The second say speaks of his word which was divided to relate holiness and love through two voices. The fifth day shows how his word produces those who obedient to the word and in the spirit. The third day speaks of his work, through incarnation. The parable of the Mustard seed begins in the third day. The sixth day, elucidated by the second account, tells how Jesus judges the world finding no one righteous and obtaining his bride through the cross. Together Christ and the church are fruitful (fruit of the Spirit) and multiplying (by teaching).

When Jesus read scripture he saw himself, not Adam, Noah, Abraham and all. The reason the Evangelical scholars confessed that they could not read the OT the way Jesus did, is because they don't read the Bible Jesus did. Tradition keeps them away from it. Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed [be] the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

shadowhunter said:

When you say you believe the Bible, which one?

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Mostly Moses and David helps us to understand Moses. ONLY Jesus adds to what we receive from Moses. Most of my time is spent trying to understand the book of Genesis. Word upon word, line upon line, precept upon precept. (Isaiah 28:10)

Numbers 12 2 "With him (Moses)I speak face to face— clearly, not in riddles

shadowhunter said:

Believing Christ, Gen 1 is about him.

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The first word is Beginning. All of he Bible is found in this word and the letters that make up this word. The message of Calvery is in the word Beginning. If we look at the very first letter in our Bible, the letter B we see this represents a tent or a tabernacle. This expresses God's desire to dwell with us. Then we see that Jesus is the gate keeper. He decides who can enter in and who most depart from the tent.

Matthew 13 7 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Zechariah 13 8 "And in all the land, declares the LORD, two-thirds will be cut off and perish, but a third will be left in it. 9This third I will bring through the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on My name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’”

God is going to save a third of the people. But many or 2/3 will perish.

31 34 Jermiah "No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the LORD. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”

shadowhunter said:

On day 4 there is a repetition of heavens and earth, suggesting thee was a tablet break there.

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Looks like a truck sized whole built with a massive amount of inference.

re-arranging the Bible has almost no limit in that sort of system.

BobRyan said:

Looks like a truck sized whole built with a massive amount of inference.

re-arranging the Bible has almost no limit in that sort of system.

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Shame has no limit ... Pr 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth [it], it [is] folly and shame unto him.

An honest man does not assume that a summary statement is the whole case. He asks questions before making conclusions.

Diamond7 said:

Mostly Moses and David helps us to understand Moses. ONLY Jesus adds to what we receive from Moses. Most of my time is spent trying to understand the book of Genesis. Word upon word, line upon line, precept upon precept. (Isaiah 28:10)

Numbers 12 2 "With him (Moses)I speak face to face— clearly, not in riddles


The first word is Beginning. All of he Bible is found in this word and the letters that make up this word. The message of Calvery is in the word Beginning. If we look at the very first letter in our Bible, the letter B we see this represents a tent or a tabernacle. This expresses God's desire to dwell with us. Then we see that Jesus is the gate keeper. He decides who can enter in and who most depart from the tent.

Matthew 13 7 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Zechariah 13 8 "And in all the land, declares the LORD, two-thirds will be cut off and perish, but a third will be left in it. 9This third I will bring through the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on My name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’”

God is going to save a third of the people. But many or 2/3 will perish.

31 34 Jermiah "No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the LORD. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”

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I was up early thinking about how much is lost when you translate Hebrew. 'Seeing' is a symbol for understanding. Hebrew is intended to be tasted. To understand, we must taste.

Ps 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD [is] good: blessed [is] the man [that] trusteth in him.

So I spent a couple hours "tasting" Ge 1:1.

Don't mind the Hebrew letters, they are there to help me track through the feast:

Before the beginning YVY יוי (Jehovah) was complete as the Father was joined to the Word by the Spirit א. The three were one א (1) . He was the beginning and the end (1,1000) א. He was good (1000) א. His name was unspeakable (silent א). The fulfillment of all mysteries would be taught when his name is spoken. א-ל-פ . Then God spoke and created the heavens and the earth. There was no one there to see or hear him do it. א

God revealed himself to man in the flesh and Spirit בר saying, "It is revealed (all of the above except his name). My Word did not return void, but he returned with an increase made possible by my Spirit ש. My complete plans for creation י were finished when my revelation produced new life ת."

From the beginning no man has seen the father, nor heard him. The Son of God בר made the invisible God א known. He was the Word (revelation ר) on earth ב. In the authority of the father ב-ראש-י-ת , he spoke and created the heavens and the earth ברא. He was totally devoted to the Father's will בר-אשית. He created in six and was cut down in six ברא-שית according to his covenant with man בר(אשי)ת. When he was finished, he sat down ברא-ש(י)ת.

The Son of God בר who is the Word ברא created all things in heaven and earth א. All things in heaven and earth א are in him בר-א. In the beginning בראשית was the word ברא.

The Word was with God ברא-אלהים, and the Word was God, בר-א. He created because of his love for his creation א-ל-ה-י-ם. But he was separated from his creation by ignorance אל-ה-ים. He is the light, life and bread.

He created everything in all places, and in all times את and ואת.

To make himself known in the Spirit, heaven שמים has the three names ה-שמ-ים : the Father מ, Word ם, and Spirit ש which testify. The heavens שמים were desolate שמם until he created י. The heavens contained the waters above מי (the purpose of the Father) and the waters below ים (creation יfinished by the Son ם). The Spirit ש was on the face of the waters ש|מים [inspiring teaching] . Creation י is held by the Father מ and the Son ם.

To make himself known to flesh, he created all things in the earth ארץ, which also contains three names: Spirit א, Water (revelation) ר, and the blood ץ.

This uses a restored Notarikon. Everything in the NT has an OT source.

shadowhunter said:

Shame has no limit ... Pr 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth [it], it [is] folly and shame unto him.

An honest man does not assume that a summary statement is the whole case. He asks questions before making conclusions.

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a pile of pejoratives do not a case make.

The one speculating that the texts are corrupted in the case of Genesis 1 - needs more than speculation to make that case into something remotely compelling. Just stating the obvious.

BobRyan said:

a pile of pejoratives do not a case make.

The one speculating that the texts are corrupted in the case of Genesis 1 - needs more than speculation to make that case into something remotely compelling. Just stating the obvious.

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Obviously you can't comprehend. I never said they were corrupted. I was making the case for eyewitness authorship. This is why honest people ask questions to ensure they understood what was said.

shadowhunter said:

There was no one there to see or hear him do it. א

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We were there. The angels were their from the beginning.

Thus the "sons of God" shouted for joy at the creation of the earth (Job 38:2).

shadowhunter said:

I was up early thinking about how much is lost when you translate Hebrew.

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It is amazing how much of the Bible does not get translated.

Diamond7 said:

We were there. The angels were their from the beginning.

Thus the "sons of God" shouted for joy at the creation of the earth (Job 38:2).

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4 ¶ Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

You are reading a rhetorical question as propositional. We (man) was not made until the sixth day. The answer to the question is "You weren't there."

Man was formed from the dust that was created by command. He didn't see God command it's creation.

There were no stars until the fourth day, and you were still not there, and they did not see Day One when God created the heavens and the earth.

The word 'foundation' ביסדי is 'in ב in creation י()י finished work ס by command ד' OR ' 'in ב my י- work י()ד completed ס'. Man was a part of the work commanded not an observer of it.

The stars and the 'Sons of God; were after God first spoke and before man. You did not pre-exist, but were formed in the womb.

shadowhunter said:

We (man) was not made until the sixth day.

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The universe started off smaller than a mustard seed. We were there in that seed. The elements we are made from were forged in the furnace of a star.

The phrase "dust of the ground" often refers to the biblical account of human creation found in the book of Genesis in the Bible. According to this account, God created the first human, Adam, from the dust of the ground and breathed life into him.

In a metaphorical sense, the phrase "dust of the ground" can be related to scientific concepts such as the origin of elements and the cosmic origins of the elements that make up our planet and, indeed, our bodies.
In astrophysics and cosmology, the term "star dust" typically refers to cosmic dust, which consists of tiny solid particles in space. These particles are composed of elements and compounds that were formed through various processes in stars and interstellar space. These elements and compounds include carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, and others essential for life as we know it.

Over billions of years, through stellar processes like nuclear fusion and supernova explosions, elements formed in stars have dispersed into space, eventually becoming part of new stars, planets, and other celestial bodies. Therefore, in a cosmic sense, the atoms and elements that make up our bodies and the Earth indeed have cosmic origins, originating from processes occurring in stars and other celestial phenomena.
While the biblical account and scientific explanations have different perspectives and interpretations, they both explore the origins of the elements and the interconnectedness of all matter in the universe.

does the bible call humans stars?

Yes, the Bible metaphorically refers to humans as stars in certain passages. This metaphorical usage is symbolic and poetic, aiming to convey specific meanings or attributes rather than a literal association with celestial bodies.

1. Genesis 22:17 (New International Version): "I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore."
   In this passage, God is speaking to Abraham, promising him numerous descendants, comparing them to the stars in the sky, emphasizing the vastness and multitude of his descendants.
2. Daniel 12:3 (New International Version): "Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever."
   Here, the prophet Daniel uses the metaphor of shining like stars to illustrate the wisdom and righteousness of individuals.
3. Philippians 2:15 (New International Version): "so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation. Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky."
   The apostle Paul, in this verse, uses the image of shining like stars to convey moral purity and standing out in a corrupted world.

These metaphors symbolize various qualities associated with stars, such as abundance, wisdom, righteousness, purity, and standing out, to help convey spiritual or metaphorical truths to the readers. It's important to understand these metaphors in the context of the overall message and intention of the biblical passages in which they are found.

are we star stuff?

Yes, the phrase "we are star stuff" is a metaphorical and poetic way of expressing the scientific fact that the elements that make up our bodies and the Earth were formed inside stars. The statement is inspired by the understanding of astrophysics and cosmology regarding the origin of elements and the lifecycle of stars.
Here's a more detailed explanation:

1. Origin of Elements: The majority of the elements in the periodic table, including those crucial for life, were formed through nuclear fusion processes within stars. Hydrogen, helium, and a small amount of lithium were created in the Big Bang. However, elements such as carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, calcium, iron, and many others are forged through nuclear fusion in the cores of stars during their lifecycle.
2. Life Cycle of Stars: Stars go through a lifecycle that involves fusion of lighter elements (e.g., hydrogen and helium) in their cores to form heavier elements (e.g., carbon, oxygen, and beyond) through a series of nuclear reactions. This process releases energy and light. When massive stars explode in a supernova, they scatter these newly formed elements into space, enriching the interstellar medium.
3. Formation of Planetary Systems: After a star explodes and scatters its enriched material, this material can go on to form new stars, planets, and other celestial bodies. Our solar system, for example, formed from a molecular cloud enriched with the remnants of previous stars.

Thus, in a poetic sense, "we are star stuff" conveys the idea that the elements making up our bodies and the Earth were created inside stars through nuclear fusion processes. The phrase underscores our cosmic connection and highlights the remarkable journey of matter, from the hearts of stars to the formation of planets and life. It's a beautiful way to express the interconnectedness of the cosmos and our origins.