Are Pastors above reproach?

rick357 · Aug 22, 2014

Biblicist2 said:
As the Scriptures do not prescribe any office of a 'pastor', we would have to ask, who places men in these often untenable roles, God or man?

Should we also note the one minister one church system ws have instituted is not found in the word...instead the jerusalem church had at a minimum the twelve apostles and James...and by the example of phillip and stephen seems the deacons were also ministers
The church at antioch is said to have had several prophets and teachers of wich Paul and barnabus were two
Paul gave instuction to the corinthians prophets should prophecy in course by three
When phillip began a work in samaria two of the apostles were sent down to them...my point is many problems could be avoided if one man did not lord the congregation as Jesus warned about.

Biblicist · Aug 22, 2014

rick357 said:
Should we also note the one minister one church system ws have instituted is not found in the word...instead the jerusalem church had at a minimum the twelve apostles and James...and by the example of phillip and stephen seems the deacons were also ministers
The church at antioch is said to have had several prophets and teachers of wich Paul and barnabus were two
Paul gave instuction to the corinthians prophets should prophecy in course by three
When phillip began a work in samaria two of the apostles were sent down to them...my point is many problems could be avoided if one man did not lord the congregation as Jesus warned about.

I agree with your observations.

One of the more interesting developments that arise when anyone challenges the legitimacy of the supposed office of the 'pastor' is that it can tend to unsettle those who are not well grounded in this area. For them, it can often be seen as an attack on the authority of the 'pastor' but what they often fail to appreciate is that many of us are all too aware of the horrid position that these men and women are placed in when we try and force-fit them into positions that the Father has not prescribed for the Body.

My regret is that this pastor/priest concept is nothing less than a poorly thought out carry over from the old days of the historical denominations where one man stood between man and God. How I long for the day when the Full Gospel church begins to understand how the Father has established leadership roles within the Body - that will probably occur about five minutes before the Lord finally returns.

rick357 · Aug 22, 2014

Biblicist2 said:
I agree with your observations.

One of the more interesting developments that arise when anyone challenges the legitimacy of the supposed office of the 'pastor' is that it can tend to unsettle those who are not well grounded in this area. For them, it can often be seen as an attack on the authority of the 'pastor' but what they often fail to appreciate is that many of us are all too aware of the horrid position that these men and women are placed in when we try and force-fit them into positions that the Father has not prescribed for the Body.

My regret is that this pastor/priest concept is nothing less than a poorly thought out carry over from the old days of the historical denominations where one man stood between man and God. How I long for the day when the Full Gospel church begins to understand how the Father has established leadership roles within the Body - that will probably occur about five minutes before the Lord finally returns.

Yes some may think it is an attack but it is truely a matter of support...a group of shepherds can fight a pack of wolves with out loosing one sheep...can one claim the same...and while Im in the analogy it is the shepherds job to mature sheep not make sheep...mature sheep make more sheep...so stop expecting the ministers who are called to streangthen and encourage your faith to grow your herd also.
Back to support of those ministers...peter is told when you are changed feed my sheep...but he was not alone most of the time John was at his hip and they part of twelve. Jesus even sent them two at a minimum...and it was not one warrior with an armor bearer...it was one apostle with anouther apostle...and notice that of the apostles peter james and john seem to be an inner circle amd later peter and john are working together...my point is they are equals not one big one little.

lismore · Aug 22, 2014

Jesus called them together and said, "You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all"

One of the main problems in the church today is that we have let go of the fine teaching of our Lord and are instead holding on to the questionable teachings of religious leaders, be they pope or pastor.

Frogster · Aug 22, 2014

2 Cor 1:24 Not that we lord it over your faith, but we work with you for your joy, for you stand firm in your faith.

The Unforgettable Fire · Aug 22, 2014

onlybygrace84 said:
I saw a video recently where an African American female preacher was hollering that no one has any right to question their pastor nor go against their pastors will. That God had placed them under that person for guidance and if the Pastor said no to a supposed leading, then the person should obey their pastor regardless of how strongly they felt on the subject.

Is this an accurate position to hold? Are pastors above question and reproach? I wish I could post the video for everyone to see. Those who are on my facebook can view it there. I dont know the name of the preacher, nor can I find her speaking video anywhere else. Perhaps the context was bigger, but the way the video is presented what is said is exactly how it was meant to come out.

Growing up Pentecostal it amazed me how people often felt that way, almost like the pastor is their pope and if the pope is happy God is happy.

There are people who I respect and respect their viewpoints. There are very, very few I value to the point I suspend my own thinking temporarily to hear them out. There is no one however that I agree entirely with and essentially disagreement is the beginning of going against the will of another.

What we need is people to be more educated in the Bible and the Christian discussion, empower them to think for themselves and decide for themselves. That's what the Gospel does. It frees us emotionally, mentally, intellectually, spiritually. I never really began thinking for myself until I consciously began to take hold of the Gospel and slowly bring the opinions of others (including pastors) off the idolatrous pedestal I had had them on.

ByTheSpirit · Aug 22, 2014

Biblicist2 said:
I agree with your observations.

One of the more interesting developments that arise when anyone challenges the legitimacy of the supposed office of the 'pastor' is that it can tend to unsettle those who are not well grounded in this area. For them, it can often be seen as an attack on the authority of the 'pastor' but what they often fail to appreciate is that many of us are all too aware of the horrid position that these men and women are placed in when we try and force-fit them into positions that the Father has not prescribed for the Body.

My regret is that this pastor/priest concept is nothing less than a poorly thought out carry over from the old days of the historical denominations where one man stood between man and God. How I long for the day when the Full Gospel church begins to understand how the Father has established leadership roles within the Body - that will probably occur about five minutes before the Lord finally returns.

rick357 said:
Yes some may think it is an attack but it is truely a matter of support...a group of shepherds can fight a pack of wolves with out loosing one sheep...can one claim the same...and while Im in the analogy it is the shepherds job to mature sheep not make sheep...mature sheep make more sheep...so stop expecting the ministers who are called to streangthen and encourage your faith to grow your herd also.
Back to support of those ministers...peter is told when you are changed feed my sheep...but he was not alone most of the time John was at his hip and they part of twelve. Jesus even sent them two at a minimum...and it was not one warrior with an armor bearer...it was one apostle with anouther apostle...and notice that of the apostles peter james and john seem to be an inner circle amd later peter and john are working together...my point is they are equals not one big one little.

lismore said:
Jesus called them together and said, "You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all"

One of the main problems in the church today is that we have let go of the fine teaching of our Lord and are instead holding on to the questionable teachings of religious leaders, be they pope or pastor.

Amen x3, 4 including the frog...

Willie T · Aug 22, 2014

Are Pastors above reproach?

ROTFL

ByTheSpirit · Aug 22, 2014

Here is the best I could do to find the video if you are still paying attention to this

FBC Jax Watchdogs: You are a Dumb Sheep! How DARE You Question the 'Man of God'!!

rick357 · Aug 22, 2014

Willie T said:
Are Pastors above reproach?

ROTFL

What does that mean

SpiritPsalmist · Aug 22, 2014

rick357 said:
What does that mean

ROTFL = Roll On The Floor Laughing

SpiritPsalmist · Aug 22, 2014

Biblicist2 said:
As the Scriptures do not prescribe any office of a 'pastor', we would have to ask, who places men in these often untenable roles, God or man?

Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,[a] which he bought with his own blood.[b]

1 Peter 5 To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder and a witness of Christ’s sufferings who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2 Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve;

In the first verse it says the Holy Spirit made them overseers. Peter calls the overseer a servant...not to be confused with door mat.

In the second verse it shows it could have been both. Peter is admonishing the elders/overseers/pastors for a reason. Some obviously were serving only because they were appointed by men and/or maybe they offered up their help and their initial intent was just to help, and then it became overwhelming and they felt they must (else Peter would not have had to make mention of it). He told them "don't watch over the flock because you must but because you are willing, and God wants you to be willing. Don't pursue gain but be eager to serve".

Who are we that we can think we know who in "all the world" is supposed to be in that position they are in? Why do we self-position ourselves to attack every one of them that does not do things the way we think it's supposed to be done? Those who are constantly attacking and correcting the pastors of the world should just start their own church so that it can be perfect. People do it all the time. Then the world can see how well they do everything.

Did you notice too that it's another leader (Peter) who is doing the correction? Not the general "just attend church goer". Also, the correction is to regard "sin" not that the Pastor did not put a paper towel dispenser in the ladies bathroom (that really happened at one church I know)

ByTheSpirit · Aug 22, 2014

Juanita Bynum is the name of the speaker... finally found out. I posted the video link also in the OP

SpiritPsalmist · Aug 22, 2014

onlybygrace84 said:
Juanita Bynum is the name of the speaker... finally found out. I posted the video link also in the OP

I think that one should be able to approach their Pastor if there are concerns and questions. In the snippet of video shown, I believe I would disagree with her.

Anyway, as in approaching anyone we should do it in humility and graciousness. She said, "if your pastor does not agree with you going, then you don't go". Not sure what she's talking about. I guess there are some pastors who feel they can tell you whether you can go on a mission trip or not....I disagree. I would probably let him know I'm going anyway then I also would probably find another church to attend. A pastor is to guide and lead and nurture, etc., not control. I've attended a few churches where the pastor was in "control". The last one, he was unapproachable.

Scripture tells us to approach in humility. Not in accusation and screaming and threatening, etc.. Most of what I've seen in churches it's the latter that most people have done. In my opinion, if when you approach you don't get the desired results and it really is that bothersome to you, then it is probably best that you leave.

No one is beyond reproach. However, in reproaching someone, we need to treat them with respect....as we should everyone.

Tenebrae · Aug 22, 2014

I look at it this way. In my profession as a nurse I am accountable to my professional body for the manner in which I practice. I also end up working as charge nurse every couple of weekends. I am in a leadership position you can bet your bottom dollar if I mess up as charge nurse I will still be held accountable.

Just because someone is in God appointed leadership doesnt mean they dont have to be held accountable for their actions.

As with all professions, there are ways to go about this. Generally as a nurse if you notice a mistake unless its fairly major you wouldnt point this out at the bedside.

Faulty · Aug 22, 2014

onlybygrace84 said:
Juanita Bynum is the name of the speaker... finally found out. I posted the video link also in the OP

Yup. I was going to mention the name. I happened to hear the entire thing in another context earlier today.

ByTheSpirit · Aug 22, 2014

Faulty said:
Yup. I was going to mention the name. I happened to hear the entire thing in another context earlier today.

What context was that in? I mean... the video in question here was only 2 minutes long or so, perhaps theres more to it and its really not as bad as it seems.

Faulty · Aug 22, 2014

onlybygrace84 said:
What context was that in? I mean... the video in question here was only 2 minutes long or so, perhaps theres more to it and its really not as bad as it seems.

Submit & Repent - Juanita Bynum - YouTube

It's about 21 minutes in. The woman is a theological train wreck. One of the people like Bentley, that if you can't tell they are way off almost immediately, then it's you with the serious problem.

SpiritPsalmist · Aug 23, 2014

Faulty said:
It's about 21 minutes in. The woman is a theological train wreck. One of the people like Bentley, that if you can't tell they are way off almost immediately, then it's you with the serious problem.

Now in it's full context it's a whole different thing. While I don't agree with everything, she has made some very true observations of those in the churches today. People want authority but they don't want to be under authority. We're not talking about the authority that puts others under them and lords it over them and pushes them around. We're talking about authority who guides and directs. Good authority does not give authority to babies in the faith. I have seen it and that's a true train wreck.

Many of those in authority have started out by being faithful to cleaning the toilets in the church. If a person in the church is not willing to start out small then why should the pastor give them something more important?

I'm kinda wondering why out of the whole sermon the only thing brought out was her saying something about not questioning pastors There was so much more surrounding that part of her sermon that has nothing to do with a pastor being without reproach.

It is my opinion, that if immediately a person concludes that another is way off base then they are guilty of seriously not listening.

Proverbs 18:13 To answer before listening-- that is folly and shame.

ByTheSpirit · Aug 23, 2014

I had no idea a longer version of the video existed, I think I even said in the OP that in proper context the video may be meant differently. I may have to find time later to watch it, but cant make any promises.

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