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IMO, in practice, "leadership" is mostly used as a deceptively sanctified trump card
and indeed your arms are a safe place where she can reveal herself without dreading being judged or ill used.Quotes by McScribe
I'm more talking here about how a couple can work effectively together. I think that the subject of how one partner or another can be badly treated is another subject altogether.
.the way our relationship works I'm the one who courts, she is the one who invites. I'm the one who is more likely to be objective at the end of a hard long day, she is more likely on the other hand to know when the kids just need a hug. I think that this leadership in part involves being protective, making sure that your home
I did look at them, and even talked to my wife about them. I have to say I was deeply moved by some of the stories there. I do very much understand your point of view. I'm also touched that you had noticed the story of my wife and I in the other thread.
In one sense I disagree with you in that I believe I need to take a role of leadership in our marriage. Maybe I wouldn't advocate that universally but it works for us. Bear in mind--my wife has her own job, she spends time with friends, goes on business trips, and certainly I can attribute being a christian to my relationship with her. It's simply that the way our relationship works I'm the one who courts, she is the one who invites. I'm the one who is more likely to be objective at the end of a hard long day, she is more likely on the other hand to know when the kids just need a hug. I think that this leadership in part involves being protective, making sure that your home and indeed your arms are a safe place where she can reveal herself without dreading being judged or ill used.
I wouldn't advocate this for everyone. There are couples who frankly need some form of mediation just to talk to one another; too much has happened for them to regain trust readily on their own. There are couples where it is the woman who is abusive or neglectful; there are couples where there really IS no couple, just roomates who share cost of living and sex.
What objective facts do you base that opinion on? Obviously your own experience plays a huge part in the formation of the opinion, but what do you have that shows, in any sort of objective way, that it's the widespread, nearly every marriage, problem that you seem to think it is?
I have quoted scientific laboratory research, Chaz.
I have quoted scripture.
I have quoted Christian men for whom I have a great deal of respect who demonstrate genuine understanding of women. I was shocked when I read Ken Nair's book. He UNDERSTANDS! I say if he can do it, any Christian man should be able to with the power of God at work within them. If they choose not to live with their wives in and UNDERSTANDING way, then their prayers will be hindered. That's not my opinion. That is a promise from God in 1 Peter 3:7.
My perception is that you would dismiss my perspective no matter how ironclad of a court case I presented. You would not agree with me if Jesus Himself told you I was right. I can't recall your treating something I posted with respect and serious consideration. I have to confess that I do make judgments and assumptions about what drives such oppositional behavior from certain male posters.
((((((shrug))))))) I don't care. BUT, IF you do that to your wife and kids, I predict there will be problems in paradise. I speak from experience.
It sounds well and good, but some men are not protective. Instead they are selfish, and sometimes even evil (I was just reading this today about some elders in a church). One of the commenters there asked "where were the mothers?". The fact is that God commands women to protect their household. HE is quite clear about that (link) though it has been obscured by translation and tradition.
Ive known psalm for awhile. I can say that hers is not based on outreach to a group of women who have been emotionally abused (whatever that means in some cases0 its based on the very powerful assumption that men , indeed Id say ALL men, NEED some kind of rehabilitation by their spiritually, and emotionally superior wives.
its not enough to not be a dominant leadere, which is an old problem that has diminished to the point where is WAY the exception and not the rule, rather that that problem ONCE existed is dragged into the present to justify the exact opposite , full on female dominance, based on the fact that they are NOT stuck in an adolescent level (or even toddler she claims) and they they are afforded PERFECT discernment about every aspect of the man and the relationship, and MUST correct him constantly lest he become an ogre dominant abusive leader and sex addict.
I invite you to consider what Im saying, and read all of her links. its not subtle or nuanced.
I think you'll find that while you can easily interpret that scripture that way nevertheless men as leaders over their wives is mentioned more than once.
But what of that? The standard is not despotism but rather 'as christ loves the church'. The Christ who bathed the feet of his followers, who fed the hungry, clothed the naked, healed the sick, befriended the lonely, comforted the miserable. As I have been saying, a call to a higher standard.
Either of the above can work. But mixing the two up where she has little to no authority, but is nevertheless blamed for all the problems is a divorce waiting to happen.
Thank you, Psalm. Now the opposition I have gotten makes a lot of sense. At least now I am beginning to understand the belief system from where it is all coming from.
KKWhere is it mentioned? I'd like the references so I can study that. I can't find it anywhere
except Genesis 3:16- which is a description of fallen consequences not a prescription for a garden of Eden marriage
and Esther 1:22 which is the law proclaimed by a pagan king angry that his wife (rightly IMO!) refused to parade in front of his drunken buddies wearing only her crown
and if you use Eph 5:23 as your basis, what does the wife being her husband's body mean and where is all the preaching about that? A head can't go anywhere unless its body takes it there(BTW, I believe it is an intimacy/one flesh metaphor and has nothing to do with leadership nor authority)
Now that is the kind of talk I can support! You have got it, and that is why it is not dangerous in your hands. But over and over and OVER, I see men on here who strike me as incredibly two faced in the way that assume a mantle of "authority over" their wives. On the one hand they believe they are entitled to override their wife's will when it comes to huge life decisions and the fact that she is devastated, upset, or angry and resistant, why she's just wrong and she should be submissive. (eg. whether she gets to go to school, moving decisions, where they go to church, etc). I see these same men who adamantly believe that God gave them "authority over" their wives "put the pants on" their wives by shifting all the laying down life and sacrificing.to her corner as they bask in their position of "king of the household" whose wife is there to serve him YET when it comes to discussing responsibility for PROBLEMS in the marriage, they will argue with post upon post that the BLAME MUST be shared, or that half the time marriage problems are the wife's fault or that women sue for divorce more so the breakup of marriages is women's fault. There is NO "the buck stops here" ethic whatsoever.
IF a man wants to believe they have "authority over" that their wife in a manner that she does not have in an equal measure over him,
THEN he needs to embrace 100% responsibility, "go first" to the cross, die to self, and do what you have written about
IF a man wants to blame wives for "50 percent of the marriage problems" and "divorce is women's fault because women more often file for divorce" yadda yadda yadda THIS IS MADE UP FROM WHOLE CLOTH, AND SHOWS THE DANGER OF YOUR "PERFECT DISCERNMENT"....YOU CANT EVEN DISCERN WHATS BEEN CLEARLY STATED. IT HAS BEEN UNEQUIVOCALLY SAID, LIKELY HUNDREDS OF TIMES SINCE IVE KNOWN YOU, THAT THE STATISTIC ABOUT FILING IS NOT CORRELATED TO IT BEING WOMENS FAULT. YET HERE YOU ARE "DISCERNING' THAT...AND IT AINT THERE, NEVER HAS BEEN THERE NEVER HAS BEEN EVEN THOUGHT BY ME
THEN he needs to respect her equal authority over him and submit to her when she expresses a deep need or desire
HERE IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE....AUTHORITY AND A DESIRE ID THINK SHOULDNT GO TOGETHER. IMAGINE IF A MAN TOOK AUTHORITY AND DEMANDED SEX...BAD IDEA, WHATS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THAT AND THIS "AUTHORITY" WHERE HE MUST OBEY AND MEET SOME DESIRE? THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE AND IVE NEVER ADVOCATED EITHER ONE
Either of the above can work. But mixing the two up where she has little to no authority, but is nevertheless blamed for all the problems is a divorce waiting to happen.MORE MADE UP, NEVER HAS THIS BEEN ATTACHED TO BLAMING HER FOR ALL THE PROBLEMS. AGAIN, ITS THIS VERY DEEPLY FLAWED THINKING AND REACTING TO OTHERS WORDS IN WAYS THAT ARE SO FAR AFIELD FROM ANYTHING THE OTHERS HAVE EVER INTIMATED IN ANY WAY, THAT MASSIVELY AFFIRMS THE FACT THAT THIS IDEA SOMEHOW THAT MY WIFE HAS GOD-LIKE DISCERNMENT AND CANNOT EVER BE WRONG THAT SHOULD CONCERN ANYONE. IN THIS CASE ITS NOT AUTHORITY EVEN THATS THE ISSUE, ITS THIS IDEA THAT THE WOMAN IS DIRECTLY CONNECTED TO GOD IN THE MANAGEMENT (AND I DO MEAN MANAGEMENT) OF HER HUSBAND. HERE, WHEN I RAISE THIS PSALM WILL SAY YES SHE DOES HAVE A CONNECTION WITH GOD......BUT SEE, I DIDNT SAY SHE DOESNT, I SAID SHE DOESNT HAVE THIS SUPERIOR CONNECTION WHERE SORT OF GOD AND HER ARE DISCUSSING "HEY HOWS HUBBY DOING?' AND SHE IS LITERALLY, AGAIN LITERALLY ABLE TO DISCERN AND COMPARE HER HUSB ACTIONS UTTERLY AND COMPLETELY PERFECTLY TO STANDARDS THAT GOD HAS SET. IT MEANS SHE NOT ONLY CAN SEE HIS OUTWARD ACTIONS BUT CAN PERFECTLY SEE DEEPLY INTO HIS VERY HEART AND MIND AND THEREBY KNOW EVEN THE DEEPEST MOTIVES AND THOUGHTS AND INTENTIONS, WHICH ANY REASONABLE PERSON KNOWS THAT ONLY GOD IS REALLY CAPABLE OF EVALUATING US ACCORDING TO HIS PERFECT STANDARDS.
WHAT I GUESS CAN SEEM A CERTAIN WAY (THOUGH I MUST ADMIT IVE NEVER SEEN ANYONE TAKE HER WORDS QUITE SO BENIGNLY WHETHER THEY AGREE OR DISAGREE) THIS IS JUST LAYING OUT A SCENARIO....LIKE I SAID GO FOLLOW THE LINKS, READ IT ALL, READ THESE RECENT POSTS AND SEE THAT IT IS FLAT OUT ASSUMED YOU, AS A MAN WILL SCREW UP, AND DOMINATE, ABUSE, COMMIT SEXUAL SIN, ALL OF THE ABOVE, AND NEGLECT, FAIL TO MEET NEEDS, FAIL AS A HUSBAND UNLESS YOUR WIFE MANAGES YOU. THIS NOTION IS EVEN FURTHER TO THE CONTROLLING SIDE THAN THE MOST OLD FASHIONED OVERBEARING MAN WHO EVER DEMANDED SUBMISSION. BECAUSE THOSE MEN, AS FLAWED AS THEY WERE, DIDNT CLAIM TO HAVE GOD FEEDING THEM INSIGHT INTO THE VERY SOUL AND INTENT OF THE WOMAN, THEY WERE JUST TRYIMNG TO RULE OVER THEIR OVER ACTIONS. HERE PSALM IS NOT STOPPING AT THE OVERT, BUT STATING A NEED TO CONTROL EVEN THE MOTIVES AND HEART CONDITIONS OF THE MAN, AND SHE CLAIMS TO BE ABLE TO KNOW THAT AS GOD KNOWS THAT.
ITS QUITE AMAZING. AND I ASSURE YOU MCSCRIBE, IF YOU CONTINUE TO DESCRIBE YOUR RELATIONSHIP YOU WILL RUN AFOUL OF HER...NOT IF.....WHEN.
Con post 177
WHAT I GUESS CAN SEEM A CERTAIN WAY (THOUGH I MUST ADMIT IVE NEVER SEEN ANYONE TAKE HER WORDS QUITE SO BENIGNLY WHETHER THEY AGREE OR DISAGREE) THIS IS JUST LAYING OUT A SCENARIO....LIKE I SAID GO FOLLOW THE LINKS, READ IT ALL, READ THESE RECENT POSTS AND SEE THAT IT IS FLAT OUT ASSUMED YOU, AS A MAN WILL SCREW UP, AND DOMINATE, ABUSE, COMMIT SEXUAL SIN, ALL OF THE ABOVE, AND NEGLECT, FAIL TO MEET NEEDS, FAIL AS A HUSBAND UNLESS YOUR WIFE MANAGES YOU. THIS NOTION IS EVEN FURTHER TO THE CONTROLLING SIDE THAN THE MOST OLD FASHIONED OVERBEARING MAN WHO EVER DEMANDED SUBMISSION. BECAUSE THOSE MEN, AS FLAWED AS THEY WERE, DIDNT CLAIM TO HAVE GOD FEEDING THEM INSIGHT INTO THE VERY SOUL AND INTENT OF THE WOMAN, THEY WERE JUST TRYIMNG TO RULE OVER THEIR OVER ACTIONS. HERE PSALM IS NOT STOPPING AT THE OVERT, BUT STATING A NEED TO CONTROL EVEN THE MOTIVES AND HEART CONDITIONS OF THE MAN, AND SHE CLAIMS TO BE ABLE TO KNOW THAT AS GOD KNOWS THAT.
However I'm going to present a challenge. Psalm, Mkgal1, do either of you feel threatened by the concept of male leadership of a family as I have presented it?
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