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For a moment then I am asking that we put aside the subject of confrontational approach to talk about how to reach an understanding between a couple as to how to have such standards. Sure they will vary. What I would like to welcome is ideas about how to actually implement a higher standard in marriage. If you do not believe that is possible then don't worry about it.
I think that this thread has gotten hijacked by this issue. There's been such a terror that people MIGHT get emotionally bullied that there has been almost no actual discussion of the standards themselves, just what is seen as their inevitable abuse. More than one person, mkgal1 included, have tried to bring things back to discussion of the OP only to have this whole confrontation thing brought up over and over again. Furthermore, I feel that more than one person has agreed "Unpleasantness in discussion of an issue is bad" only to insist that it is the idea of aiming for good communication, mutual respect and prayer that are being discussed as standards.
And yes, chaz brought up the idea that confrontations about someone else's prayer life are really unpleasant. I really wish that both of you would get this: this thread is about AGREEMENTS, not about one person tyrannically imposing standards on someone else. It's about a couple at some stage in their relationship finding compromise and understanding.
As I'm writing this I'm thinking that the praise reports I've put on this forum about my marriage have come with difficulty. There are times even lately when it's hard to keep trying, just because of the sense at times of being overwhelmed. Part of what has helped is raising the bar for our marriage as part of an agreement I have with my wife that is constant effort at humbling ourselves, being willing to try harder next time, praying with greater wisdom and understanding and many other things. It may seem like I'm being pat or smug or something, but I'm not. What I've been trying to do is share my own struggle with the idea that it might help someone else.
So when I came up with these standards I have been trying to share what I thought was effective for us. We've agreed that we will always bring prayer into problems that are not easily solved by something routine; we've agreed that we will always respect one another, not treat one another with any form of contempt. (even when it comes to teasing--no teasing that is really a form of insult) We've agreed that we will be honest with one another and have the courage to receive that honesty from the other person; we've agreed that we will not be an emotional island but will reach out to others and minister to them.
In other words we are trying to put what the Bible says about love into practice for one another and for ourselves, frankly. I think that this is a standard people can live up to. I don't intend to say things like "Hey, you're not praying enough" but I will say things like "Honey, I would like for us to pray about this." I think that frankly if she had to confront me on whether or not we were praying it would probably be because I wasn't holding my end up. It would probably mean that I wasn't responding to her requests for prayer, or failing to lead the children in prayer at bedtime or all of us at saying grace or whatever, roles I have already agreed to do.
For a moment then I am asking that we put aside the subject of confrontational approach to talk about how to reach an understanding between a couple as to how to have such standards. Sure they will vary. What I would like to welcome is ideas about how to actually implement a higher standard in marriage. If you do not believe that is possible then don't worry about it.
For a moment then I am asking that we put aside the subject of confrontational approach to talk about how to reach an understanding between a couple as to how to have such standards. Sure they will vary. What I would like to welcome is ideas about how to actually implement a higher standard in marriage. If you do not believe that is possible then don't worry about it.
If mutual submission is missing, the standards won't work. The poor woman will be doing all the flexing and bowing, while her husband "rebels" against her attempts to "fix him" (because of his unresolved authority issues left over from an abusive childhood: he assumes she doesn't/shouldn't have any, while he as "the head of the household" gets to control everything) Males as HOH is a christian myth BTW, a consequence of the Fall, and unsupportable by actual biblical instructions. There is no scripture proclaiming the male as exclusive head of the household (except the account of the law made by a drunken pagan king- click here)
Laboratory observation of couples demonstrates the results of living a Fall-based marriage where the man feels entitled and justified ruling over his wife and even the household and refuses her influence: From Gottman The Marriage Clinichis observation led me to formulate the hypothesis that marriages work to the extent that men accept influence from, share power with women. Next I applied this to a longitudinal study of 130 nonviolent newlywed couples and found that, amazingly, those in which the men did not accept influence from their wives wound up divorced. The prediction rate was very good, 80% accuracy, and it did not work the other way around: Most wives accepted influence from their husbands, and the acceptance predicted nothing.
In some cases, one will have to do some painful boundary work before any negotiation is even possible. And I would not rule out "confrontational". Sometimes it is necessary when someone has become accustomed to their bad habits.
See link and link, both quotes from "Boundaries in Marriage" by Cloud and Townsend. The first is an example of the bad habits, and the second describes what to expect when one starts standing up to the entitled, controlling spouse.
And of course, in your world that person that has become accustomed to their bad habits is nearly always the man, right?
Depends on how steeped he is in bad theology and how far he takes it (and how much his poor wife buys it and gives him that shiny apple full of death) Click Here
You missed the point. Are angry and controlling men inherently more common than angry and controlling women? In your world, the answer is obviously yes. In the real world, most definitely not.
Having said that, Psalm: how would you suggest that a couple build an effective understanding between them of how to treat each other well? I do understand that some women have really suffered in their relationships and I don't discount that; I'm more talking here about how a couple can work effectively together. I think that the subject of how one partner or another can be badly treated is another subject altogether.
I did look at them, and even talked to my wife about them. I have to say I was deeply moved by some of the stories there. I do very much understand your point of view. I'm also touched that you had noticed the story of my wife and I in the other thread.
In one sense I disagree with you in that I believe I need to take a role of leadership in our marriage. Maybe I wouldn't advocate that universally but it works for us. Bear in mind--my wife has her own job, she spends time with friends, goes on business trips, and certainly I can attribute being a christian to my relationship with her. It's simply that the way our relationship works I'm the one who courts, she is the one who invites. I'm the one who is more likely to be objective at the end of a hard long day, she is more likely on the other hand to know when the kids just need a hug. I think that this leadership in part involves being protective, making sure that your home and indeed your arms are a safe place where she can reveal herself without dreading being judged or ill used.
I wouldn't advocate this for everyone. There are couples who frankly need some form of mediation just to talk to one another; too much has happened for them to regain trust readily on their own. There are couples where it is the woman who is abusive or neglectful; there are couples where there really IS no couple, just roomates who share cost of living and sex.
In one sense I disagree with you in that I believe I need to take a role of leadership in our marriage. Maybe I wouldn't advocate that universally but it works for us. Bear in mind--my wife has her own job, she spends time with friends, goes on business trips, and certainly I can attribute being a christian to my relationship with her. It's simply that the way our relationship works I'm the one who courts, she is the one who invites. I'm the one who is more likely to be objective at the end of a hard long day, she is more likely on the other hand to know when the kids just need a hug. I think that this leadership in part involves being protective, making sure that your home and indeed your arms are a safe place where she can reveal herself without dreading being judged or ill used.
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