Are LDS Prophets Only Speculating?

Rescued One · Jul 30, 2006

Ran77 said:
Are we arguing for argument sake here?

It would seem silly to me to argue against the notion that the LDS are the best ones to understand LDS doctrine. When comments of my fellow LDS line up with what I have said that is a strong indication that I am not incorrectly interpreting LDS beliefs - as Phoebe has charged against me. When, in addition, my fellow LDS regularly point out the misrepresentations that I do - that is a strong indication that those views are not representative of what we believe.

LDS say, "That is misrepresentative of our beliefs," but they seldom, if ever, provide proof. What LDS consistently claim is misrepresentative are the quotes of your leaders. Your leaders couldn't get it right, yet you have the audacity to criticize ex-LDS. I and other ex-LDS have put up with condescending remarks time after time.

fatboys · Jul 30, 2006

Phoebe Ann said:
LDS say, "That is misrepresentative of our beliefs," but they seldom, if ever, provide proof. What LDS consistently claim is misrepresentative are the quotes of your leaders. Your leaders couldn't get it right, yet you have the audacity to criticize ex-LDS. I and other ex-LDS have put up with condescending remarks time after time.

Pheobe, I have been away as you know for a few months and just recently returned. And can see a big change in your attitude towards the church from when you first started posting to now. I have seen this many times before, and I really did think you would fail to resist the negative.

As LDS, we have tried to explain and express misunderstandings and misconceptions. I am not sure why, you bring as ex LDS arguments that you should already know the answers to. I know you know the answers. And I wonder why. When any LDS say that this is a misrepresentation of our beliefs, take us at our word, and then listen to what is said. Now you do not have to accept the answer, but the answer satisfies us. With the experiences and the study and knowledge given to, we are not looking for perfect answers. There are none. We can not prove anything to those who can not even accept the basic foundations as real.

Rescued One · Jul 30, 2006

fatboys said:
I have seen this many times before, and I really did think you would fail to resist the negative.

What have you seen many times before?

fatboys said:
As LDS, we have tried to explain and express misunderstandings and misconceptions. I am not sure why, you bring as ex LDS arguments that you should already know the answers to. I know you know the answers. And I wonder why. When any LDS say that this is a misrepresentation of our beliefs, take us at our word, and then listen to what is said.

Part of debate is showing how your opponent is wrong. If you claim your opponent is wrong about your beliefs, show us that your prophets and apostles retracted those quotes or said them under the influence of anesthesia.

fatboys · Jul 30, 2006

Phoebe Ann said:
What have you seen many times before?

I am not sure I can explain. There have been times when those who have left the church, and post on boards like this can do so without portraying the church in such a negative light. Some of these people start out in a very pleasant and non confrontational attitude. I think that when people get into this type of forum that in order to justify wasting time here they get more negative.

Part of debate is showing how your opponent is wrong. If you claim your opponent is wrong about your beliefs, show us that your prophets and apostles retracted those quotes or said them under the influence of anesthesia.

I am your opponent? The church is your opponent? I don't oppose you in what you want to do with your life. I am glad you have faith in God and Christ. I do so without accusing you of being anything but sincere.

Rescued One · Jul 31, 2006

fatboys said:
I am not sure I can explain. There have been times when those who have left the church, and post on boards like this can do so without portraying the church in such a negative light. Some of these people start out in a very pleasant and non confrontational attitude. I think that when people get into this type of forum that in order to justify wasting time here they get more negative.

If you view this place as a waste of time, you shouldn't post here.

fatboys said:
I am your opponent? The church is your opponent? I don't oppose you in what you want to do with your life. I am glad you have faith in God and Christ. I do so without accusing you of being anything but sincere.

You are my opponent in a debate if you choose to oppose what I've said. I'm not here to force you to do anything differently in your life. I haven't even told anyone here to leave the LDS church.

fatboys · Jul 31, 2006

Phoebe Ann said:
If you view this place as a waste of time, you shouldn't post here.

I could have chosen better words, and perhaps wasting time does not discribe it correctly, I just know that you are motivated to be here. For some it is to justify leaving. To make sure they made the right decision. There are two reasons I am here. One is to try and correct, and the other is to learn.

You are my opponent in a debate if you choose to oppose what I've said. I'm not here to force you to do anything differently in your life. I haven't even told anyone here to leave the LDS church.

opponent means to me that we are doing battle. I don't want to fight you. The church does not want to battle you. I think opponent is the wrong word.

Rescued One · Jul 31, 2006

fatboys said:
I could have chosen better words, and perhaps wasting time does not discribe it correctly, I just know that you are motivated to be here. For some it is to justify leaving. To make sure they made the right decision. There are two reasons I am here. One is to try and correct, and the other is to learn.

So do you retract your statement that this is a waste of time?

Do you come here to second guess the motivations of ex-LDS? We could as easily say that you are trying to convince yourself to stay in the LDS church. Neither of us can read the other's mind as far as I know. Are you claiming to be clairvoyant?

fatboys said:
opponent means to me that we are doing battle. I don't want to fight you. The church does not want to battle you. I think opponent is the wrong word.

This a debate forum. We are free to disagree. I state my position; you state your opposing position. That is a debate.

debate
VERB:
de·bat·ed , de·bat·ing , de·bates
VERB:
intr.

To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/debate

Two people who debate each other are opponents.

buddy mack · Jul 31, 2006

Phoebe Ann said:
LDS say, "That is misrepresentative of our beliefs," but they seldom, if ever, provide proof. What LDS consistently claim is misrepresentative are the quotes of your leaders. Your leaders couldn't get it right, yet you have the audacity to criticize ex-LDS. I and other ex-LDS have put up with condescending remarks time after time.

Thats it just amen

Ran77 · Jul 31, 2006

Phoebe Ann said:
LDS say, "That is misrepresentative of our beliefs," but they seldom, if ever, provide proof. What LDS consistently claim is misrepresentative are the quotes of your leaders. Your leaders couldn't get it right, yet you have the audacity to criticize ex-LDS. I and other ex-LDS have put up with condescending remarks time after time.

When I point out the misrepresentations that you make about our beliefs I provide proof of it. I notice that Swart and several of the others do the same. So your comment is highly inaccurate.

As far as condenscending remarks: well, I guess it is a matter of expecting someone who was a member and still spends so much time on the subject of LDS beliefs to be able to get it right. The liberal use of quoting out of context doesn't help improve the situation.

And LDS on this forum put up with comments about the falseness of our religion, the falseness of our prophets, the perverted nature of our leaders, the perverted nature of our beliefs, the racist nature of our Church and its members, etc, etc, on and on. Whole threads are started with these kinds of thoughts being expanded upon - sometimes in great detail - and you want to complain because we get tired of making the same corrections to the misrepresentations of our beliefs. That's audacity.

Ran77 · Jul 31, 2006

Phoebe Ann said:
Neither of us can read the other's mind as far as I know. Are you claiming to be clairvoyant?

And yet, you frequently make statements that what other people believe, think, and know. Such as the thread where I admitted that I had learned something from you in one of our debates and you returned with the comment that I had learned nothing.

fatboys · Jul 31, 2006

Phoebe Ann said:
So do you retract your statement that this is a waste of time?

This is important to you because???

Do you come here to second guess the motivations of ex-LDS? We could as easily say that you are trying to convince yourself to stay in the LDS church. Neither of us can read the other's mind as far as I know. Are you claiming to be clairvoyant?

I am not second guessing your motives. There are reasons you are here. Most people who leave the church do not end up on anti mormon websites discussing who bad the church was. I find that most who do, are trying to justify the reason or reasons they left.

This a debate forum. We are free to disagree. I state my position; you state your opposing position. That is a debate.

debate
VERB:
de·bat·ed , de·bat·ing , de·bates
VERB:
intr.

To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/debate

Two people who debate each other are opponents.[/QUOTE]

I don't want to debate, although that is what it seems to end up doing. Exchanging ideas would be much better. To come away with the feeling that I have learned something more in a positive way, than always having to defend some nit picking statement and try to explain something that is a non issue. That is frustrating doing that over and over again. I mean how many times has the topic of Blacks been discussed? And it does not matter what answer is given, it does not satisfy you. That is because you are not going to give one inch. If you did, then you would have to say you were wrong about something in the church, and then if you were wrong about that, what else could you have been wrong about, to the point that there would be nothing to DEBATE. So none of the answers are ever going to statisfy those who leave. As for being here to make sure I stay in it makes little sense. If I was unsure about the church and wanted to remain in it, I certainly would not come to a anti mormon board.

Penitent · Jul 31, 2006

Wrigley said:
Does that make the words at conference EQUAL to that of your scriptures?

Some talks are worthy of cannonization, others not so much. But, like the scriptures they are for our benefit. To answer your question, yes and no, each conference some talks rise to that of equality with scripture in my mind.

Rescued One · Jul 31, 2006

fatboys said:
I am not second guessing your motives. There are reasons you are here. Most people who leave the church do not end up on anti mormon websites discussing who bad the church was. I find that most who do, are trying to justify the reason or reasons they left.

Yes, and I have said why I'm here. Would you like to call me a liar?

For you to claim that most ex-LDS are trying to justify their leaving the LDS church is like my saying that most LDS who come here just like to put ex-Mormons down. You are making a general statement about ex-Mormons and you have absolutely no proof. It sounds like you just want to give ex-Mormons a bad name.

fatboys said:
I don't want to debate, although that is what it seems to end up doing. Exchanging ideas would be much better. To come away with the feeling that I have learned something more in a positive way, than always having to defend some nit picking statement and try to explain something that is a non issue. That is frustrating doing that over and over again.

If you are so frustrated, you have two options:

1. Take a break.
2. Stay away.

Why would you come to Christian Forums to learn something? You already told us that you have more truth than non-Mormons.

fatboys said:
I mean how many times has the topic of Blacks been discussed? And it does not matter what answer is given, it does not satisfy you. That is because you are not going to give one inch. If you did, then you would have to say you were wrong about something in the church, and then if you were wrong about that, what else could you have been wrong about, to the point that there would be nothing to DEBATE.

I have an idea. Why don't you just admit that the ex-Mormons are right? End of debate.

fatboys said:
So none of the answers are ever going to statisfy those who leave. As for being here to make sure I stay in it makes little sense. If I was unsure about the church and wanted to remain in it, I certainly would not come to a anti mormon board.

So you're beating your head against the wall? Do you consider this an anti-Mormon board?

fatboys · Jul 31, 2006

Phoebe Ann said:
Yes, and I have said why I'm here. Would you like to call me a liar?

Forgive me if I don't remember why. And I certainly would not call you a liar. My opinions are just that, opinions, just as yours are.

For you to claim that most ex-LDS are trying to justify their leaving the LDS church is like my saying that most LDS who come here just like to put ex-Mormons down. You are making a general statement about ex-Mormons and you have absolutely no proof. It sounds like you just want to give ex-Mormons a bad name.

And you have no proof or any way to prove I am wrong. Lets say we took a poll and asked all here who were exmormon what their reasons are for being here. If there were some who are here for the reasons I spoke of, do you think they would agree.

Do you really think I want to give ex mormons a bad name? Do you really believe this?

If you are so frustrated, you have two options:

1. Take a break.
2. Stay away.

Why would you come to Christian Forums to learn something? You already told us that you have more truth than non-Mormons.

Truth can come from any source. All good is of God. Those thing which you teach that are good, are of God. The good that comes from God are important truths. You have a lot of truth, there is just more out there that you do not want to accept. I try to be a little more open, so I can learn truth.

I have an idea. Why don't you just admit that the ex-Mormons are right? End of debate.

Your right, now does that end the debate?

So you're beating your head against the wall? Do you consider this an anti-Mormon board?

Lets see we can not post in orthodox forums, and are limited in what we can do just because of our beliefs. What would you call it?

Obiwan · Jul 31, 2006

Lets see we can not post in orthodox forums, and are limited in what we can do just because of our beliefs. What would you call it?

North Korea, Iran, China?

Only those who are insecure, and have not a sure foundation, need to control the free flow of respectful knowledge and information.

Rescued One · Jul 31, 2006

fatboys said:
Lets see we can not post in orthodox forums, and are limited in what we can do just because of our beliefs. What would you call it?

I would call it a brilliant move on Erwin's part, considering how anti-non-Mormon the LDS are.

Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14
9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth.
11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the harlot of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.
12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the harlot who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great harlot whom I saw.

Doctrine and Covenants 1
29 And after having received the record of the Nephites, yea, even my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., might have power to translate through the mercy of God, by the power of God, the Book of Mormon.
30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—
31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;

Joseph Smith History, Chapter 1

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” - Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith History 1

"If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.670).

fatboys · Jul 31, 2006

Phoebe Ann said:
I would call it a brilliant move on Erwin's part, considering how anti-non-Mormon the LDS are.

Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14
9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth.
11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the harlot of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.
12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the harlot who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great harlot whom I saw.

Doctrine and Covenants 1
29 And after having received the record of the Nephites, yea, even my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., might have power to translate through the mercy of God, by the power of God, the Book of Mormon.
30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually
31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;

Joseph Smith History, Chapter 1

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof. - Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith History 1

"If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.670).

Nice quotes, but I am not sure what that has to with me being anti non mormon? Explain

RufustheRed · Jul 31, 2006

fatboys said:
Nice quotes, but I am not sure what that has to with me being anti non mormon? Explain

What do the passages that she quoted mean to you?

Mac

fatboys · Aug 1, 2006

McGregor said:
What do the passages that she quoted mean to you?

Mac

Well Mac I am glad you asked. It would appear that not only was Satan active in tempting Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit, but is going to and fro in the earth, leading the hearts of man away from God. Or at least putting great effort into it. And that there are those who fight against the church of the Lamb of God. Those that do fight against the church of the Lamb of God would be consider part of the church of the Devil. And the church of the Lamb of God would be restored in the latter days to bring and restore truths that had been lost. That one way you would be able to tell if it was the True Church of the Lamb of God would be by its fruits. That is more of God's word and brought about by a Marvelous work and wonder. And that a wonderful event would talk place by a young boy who was unlearned. That God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ would appear to the boy after he prayed to know which of the many churches were true. Christ told him that none of them were. That there man made creeds were an abomination, and the professors and teachers were corrupt. For they were teaching the doctrines of man, and denying the power there of.

Notice that no where does it say people of other faiths were evil, but that they teachers and those who created the creeds were doing so without his authority.

That is what it means to me.

Are LDS Prophets Only Speculating?

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