Are all men really created equal?

[InSpiritInTruth]

Jefferson wrote;"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal."

I suppose Jefferson was talking about the Creator of heaven and earth when he made this statement, but is this really self evident, and is this really the Truth by the Word of God?

I know that Gods judgments are equal and true, and that the Lord does not use different weights and measures when making these judgments. But where in the scriptures does it say that all men are created equal?

On the contrary, we are told in Romans 9:11;"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand; not of works, but of him that calleth."

And also in Romans 9:21 we read;"Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor."

Many a president has quoted those words of Jefferson, saying how we are all created equal in the eyes of God.

But are we really? And if so, where is it written in the Word of God?

 

[JRSut1000]

*Subscribes*

 

[heymikey80]

Romans 9:11-13 says this choice of God has zilch to do with anything in the person.

 

[JAL]

Jefferson wrote;"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal."

I suppose Jefferson was talking about the Creator of heaven and earth when he made this statement, but is this really self evident, and is this really the Truth by the Word of God?

I know that Gods judgments are equal and true, and that the Lord does not use different weights and measures when making these judgments. But where in the scriptures does it say that all men are created equal?

On the contrary, we are told in Romans 9:11;"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand; not of works, but of him that calleth."

And also in Romans 9:21 we read;"Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor."

Many a president has quoted those words of Jefferson, saying how we are all created equal in the eyes of God.

But are we really? And if so, where is it written in the Word of God?

Given your concessions, this thread is just nitpicking. Jefferson's statement captures much of the biblical perspective, because it is harmonious with with the maxim,"Love they neighbor as thyself" and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Jefferson's advocation of slavery contradicted his statement, but it was biblical nonetheless. In short, from a biblical perspective, no man should presume a greater right to life, liberty, and happiness than his fellow man but, on the contrary, should try to esteem others as better than himself. "The greatest among you will be your servant."

Given that no man should presume, was Moses wrong to permit slavery in Israel? Moses didn't presume anything. His actions were based on KNOWLEDGE (face to face communication with God). After 2000 years, the church still hasn't a clue as to how to obtain knowledge. One party looks to exegesis, the other to Tradition, but both are wrong.

 

[Verticordious]

Jefferson wrote;"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal."

I suppose Jefferson was talking about the Creator of heaven and earth when he made this statement, but is this really self evident, and is this really the Truth by the Word of God?

I know that Gods judgments are equal and true, and that the Lord does not use different weights and measures when making these judgments. But where in the scriptures does it say that all men are created equal?

On the contrary, we are told in Romans 9:11;"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand; not of works, but of him that calleth."

And also in Romans 9:21 we read;"Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor."

Many a president has quoted those words of Jefferson, saying how we are all created equal in the eyes of God.

But are we really? And if so, where is it written in the Word of God?

Romans 9:11 is talking about who was chosen to be the lineage through which the messiah would come. God had a plan about how he wanted the messiah to come into the world, and that plan wasn't based upon good or bad people had been. The verse has nothing to do with God forcing people to be saved/damned.

Likewise, verse 9:21 has nothing to do with God forcing people to be saved/damned. Romans 9:21 is a reference to Jeremiah 18:

Jeremiah 18:5-12 (NASB) [1] The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD saying, [2] “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will announce My words to you.” [3] Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. [4] But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make.

[5] Then the word of the LORD came to me saying, [6] “Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. [7] At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; [8] if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. [9] Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; [10] if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. [11] So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, ‘Thus says the LORD, “Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds.”’ [12] But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.’

It's not a coincidence that Paul chose the analogy of the potter and the clay. He chose the analogy because God had used it previously. God does have the right to use some people for honor and some for dishonor, but God clearly states that his decision of which category a people falls under is based upon their choices. At first the potter making was one vessel, but then the clay spoiled, which is an analogy to disobedience, and so the potter made the clay into a difference vessel. God determines whether or not he wants to make us into a vessel of honor or dishonor based upon how we behave. If we obey him, he will make us a vessel of honor, but if we turn from him, then he will turn us into one of dishonor.

The Bible is quite clear that God does not show favoritism. Anyone who chooses to be obedient to God will be accepted, and anyone who chooses to reject God will be rejected. Just take the story of Cain and Abel. Abel was a meat eater like God commanded, and God accepted him, but Cain chose the vegetarian route, and God rejected him. Cain was depressed about this so God came to talk to him, and what did God say? He told Cain to suck it up and stop being a crybaby because some people are chosen for honor and some for dishonor, and that Cain just happened to be chosen for dishonor, right? Absolutely not. He asked Cain, rhetorically, "Will you not be accepted if you do what is right?". Instead of correcting his behavior, and being accepted, he went and murdered his brother, and he was rejected.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

The Lord said I will have mercy, on whom I will have mercy; and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Not our choice, but His.

 

[Verticordious]

The Lord said I will have mercy, on whom I will have mercy; and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Not our choice, but His.

Romans 9:15 is a quote of Exodus 33:19, in which Moses is asking God to fulfill the promises he made regarding leading the nation of Israel to the promised land and making it known that they are God's people. The statement has nothing to do with individuals or salvation, so the Calvinist assertion that Romans 9:15 means that God chooses individuals for salvation has no Biblical support.

 

[paul becke]

James epistle reminds us of a fairly consistent theme thoughout scripture, namely, that God chose the poor to be rich in faith. Although there is occasionally some ambiguity on the subject in the Old Testament, the general trend is unmistakeable. Indeed, references to 'the poor man' are repeatedly placed in apposition to 'the virtuous man', and references to 'the rich man' in apposition to the 'wicked man'.

For me, the most memorable instance of these appositions occurs in the quotation of Isiah 53:9, we hear each year during the Good Friday service:

"He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

It is all the more notable in that the grave in which Jesus body was laid, was a gift of the generous, rich man who was very sympathetic to Jesus, Joseph of Arimathea. We have to generalise in order to make sense of the world, despite often numerous exceptions.

In one of his epistles, Paul urges his flock to pray for the civil authorities, so that they, themselves, might live and worship in peace. He then adds that God wants all people to be saved (implicitly, even the most worldly and endemically hostile to the faith: 'the great and the good' of this World)

The fact remains, however, that we are all God's children, equally precious to him, and as an eastern sage once remarked, 'As an ant is in God, it is higher than we are in ourselves.' The idea that some human beings are superior to others in God's eyes (the only sane criterion) verges on blasphemy. We are either speaking of "other Christs" or those God wishes to become "other Christs". And as Paul remarks elsewhere, the Mystical Body of Christ is made up of many parts, just like the human body, and each has a unique value to it.

This is not to say that Jesus didn't, on occasions, exploit our competitive spirit to urge us to strive harder, but when it threatened to lead to a real misunderstanding, as JAL pointed out, Jesus stated categorically: "The greatest among you will be your servant."

 

[Jpark]

Coming from the same guy who made the Bible of truth into a Bible of morals... I highly doubt it.

There is no favoritism with God but there is conditional intervention. Why does God still dwell with man and who does He listen to? (Isaiah 57:15, John 9:31, Matt. 7:21).

What did He look for (1 Samuel 16:14, 2 Chronicles 7:13-14, 1 Samuel 16:7, Matt. 15:18-20)?

Favoritism in the Bible = conditional and unconditional grace.

There's two graces, not one.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

John 6:44;"No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 15:16;"You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that you should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever you shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

 

[JohnRabbit]

Acts 10:34-35(NKJV)
34Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality.
35But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

 

[straydog]

Jefferson wrote;"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal."

I suppose Jefferson was talking about the Creator of heaven and earth when he made this statement, but is this really self evident, and is this really the Truth by the Word of God?

I know that Gods judgments are equal and true, and that the Lord does not use different weights and measures when making these judgments. But where in the scriptures does it say that all men are created equal?

On the contrary, we are told in Romans 9:11;"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand; not of works, but of him that calleth."

And also in Romans 9:21 we read;"Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor."

Many a president has quoted those words of Jefferson, saying how we are all created equal in the eyes of God.

But are we really? And if so, where is it written in the Word of God?

You only quoted part of Jefferson's statement,not all of it.


''all men are created equal'' is only part of his statement - not all of it,it is taken out of context....


No one is equal.


Genesis 9:25-27:25And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

 

[straydog]

John 6:44;"No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 15:16;"You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that you should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever you shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

Matthew 25:33:And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

 

[straydog]

The Bible is quite clear that God does not show favoritism.

Deuteronomy 7:6:For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.