apostate, heretic, schismatic?

[zhilan]

What's the difference between heresy, apostacy, and schism? If someone leaves the church for another religion or sect of christianity which one are they?

 

[Carrye]

Heresy - denying some aspect of the Faith
Apostacy - denying the Faith entirely
Schismatic - not in communion with

If someone leaves the Catholic Church, it would ordinarily be hard to label. There are several things that play in here.

 

[longhair75]

there are many people here wiser than i, but i will give it a try:

a person is a heretic when they remain a member of the denomination while denying key doctrine.

a person is apostate when they leave the denomination for another.

a person is a schismatic when they form their own sect.

during the time i remained in my former denomination while disagreeing with some of the basic doctrine, i was a heretic. since i left that denomination for another, i am apostate. had i formed my own denomination, using the doctrine i agreed with from my former denomination, i would have created a schism.

lh

 

[zhilan]

So then would Martin Luther be a schismatic but a Catholic who became Lutheran would be an apostate?

 

[longhair75]

So then would Martin Luther be a schismatic but a Catholic who became Lutheran would be an apostate?

as near as i understand it, this would be correct.

 

[YourBrotherInChrist]

The Church's canon law defines these as follows:

Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith.

Apostasy is the total repudiation of the christian faith.

Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

 

[zhilan]

Are they all equally bad? Do you go to hell for all of them or just apostasy?

 

[longhair75]

friend your brother in christ,

Apostasy is the total repudiation of the christian faith. Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him

so, the catholic converting to the lutheran church (from the example) is not an apostate but in schism? i have misunderstood the terms all along. thanks

lh

 

[Debi1967]

So then would Martin Luther be a schismatic but a Catholic who became Lutheran would be an apostate?

Luther himself was excommunicated through a Bull because Luther totally repudiated at the end the teachings of the Church .... This thenm at that point put him into heresy .... until then he was in schism with the Church for denying key aspects of Faith .... Someone who is Schismatic denies the Authority of the Pope and yet still believes in the Teachings of the Church which Luther did for a long time

 

[longhair75]

friend debiwebi

Someone who is Schismatic denies the Authority of the Pope and yet still believes in the Teachings of the Church which Luther did for a long time

so. would this definition of schismatic also include followers of luther?

lh

 

[Debi1967]

friend debiwebiso. would this definition of schismatic also include followers of luther?

lh

At the time yes, those that willingly mind you knew and that left the Church with him ....

Now No it does not

1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."81 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."82

The difference here is that because you and others were ( as it used to say, but every Pope rewrites the Catechism) born into the division caused by others therefore it is not your fault because you do not know .... If then you get to an area of knowledge where yuou do and then renounce it then yes it would be the same ..... But all are either informally or formally part of the Church and the Mystical Body of Believers if they have Faith and are Baptized in the Trinitarian Formulae

 

[Debi1967]

Longhair I am going to give you some quotes and then references that go with them to further look into ok to get a better understanding of the three

Apostasy

The word itself in its etymological sense, signifies the desertion of a post, the giving up of a state of life; he who voluntarily embraces a definite state of life cannot leave it, therefore, without becoming an apostate. Most authors, however, distinguish with Benedict XIV (De Synodo di£cesanâ, XIII, xi, 9), between three kinds of apostasy: apostasy a Fide or perfidi£, when a Christian gives up his faith; apostasy ab ordine, when a cleric abandons the ecclesiastical state; apostasy a religione, or monachatus, when a religious leaves the religious life. The Gloss on title 9 of the fifth book of the Decretals of Gregory IX mentions two other kinds of apostasy: apostasy inobedientiæ, disobedience to a command given by lawful authority, and iteratio baptismatis, the repetition of baptism, "quoniam reiterantes baptismum videntur apostatare dum recedunt a priori baptismate". As all sin involves disobedience, the apostasy inobedientiæ does not constitute a specific offense. In the case of iteratio baptismatis, the offence falls rather under the head of heresy and irregularity than of apostasy; if the latter name has sometimes been given to it, it is due to the fact that the Decretals of Gregory IX combine into one title, under the rubric "De apostatis et reiterantibus baptisma" (V, title 9) the two distinct titles of the Justinian Code: "Ne sanctum baptisma iteretur" and" De apostatis " (I, titles 6, 7), in Corpus juris civilis ed. Krueger, (Berlin, 1888); II 60-61. See München "Das kanonische Gerichtsverfahren und Strafrecht" (Cologne, 1874), II, 362, 363. Apostasy, in its strictest sense, means apostasy a Fide (St. Thomas, Summa theologica, II-II, Q. xii a. 1).

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01624b.htm

Heresy

Heresy differs from apostasy. The apostate a fide abandons wholly the faith of Christ either by embracing Judaism, Islamism, Paganism, or simply by falling into naturalism and complete neglect of religion; the heretic always retains faith in Christ. Heresy also differs from schism. Schismatics, says St. Thomas, in the strict sense, are they who of their own will and intention separate themselves from the unity of the Church. The unity of the Church consists in the connection of its members with each other and of all the members with the head. Now this head is Christ whose representative in the Church is the supreme pontiff. And therefore the name of schismatics is given to those who will not submit to the supreme pontiff nor communicate with the members of the Church subject to him. Since the definition of Papal Infallibility, schism usually implies the heresy of denying this dogma. Heresy is opposed to faith; schism to charity; so that, although all heretics are schismatics because loss of faith involves separation from the Church, not all schismatics are necessarily heretics, since a man may, from anger, pride, ambition, or the like, sever himself from the communion of the Church and yet believe all the Church proposes for our belief (II-II, Q. xxix, a. 1). Such a one, however, would be more properly called rebellious than heretical.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm#REF_I

continued in the next post for Schism

 

[Debi1967]

Schism

"Between heresy and schism", explains St. Jerome, "there is this difference, that heresy perverts dogma, while schism, by rebellion against the bishop, separates from the Church. Nevertheless there is no schism which does not trump up a heresy to justify its departure from the Church (In Ep. ad ***., iii, 10). And St. Augustine: "By false doctrines concerning God heretics wound faith, by iniquitous dissensions schismatics deviate from fraternal charity, although they believe what we believe" (De fide et symbolo, ix). But as St. Jerome remarks, practically and historically, heresy and schism nearly always go hand in hand; schism leads almost invariably to denial of the papal primacy.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13529a.htm

 

[Debi1967]

I hope with all of that information for you that I have helped to make things more clear to you. If you have questions about anything here or that you read from the Catholic encyclopedia, please feel free to ask .....

Lovingly in Christ
Debi

 

[Globalnomad]

Are they all equally bad? Do you go to hell for all of them or just apostasy?

You can go to hell for any of them (they are all objectively "grave matter"), but you will not necessarily go to hell for any of them, and nobody else will know whether you did or not (except the Pope, if he chooses to make an infallible statement about you). Only God can judge to what extent you were fulfilling the other two conditions for a mortal sin, that of full awareness and free consent of he will.

 

[longhair75]

friend debiwebi

I hope with all of that information for you that I have helped to make things more clear to you. If you have questions about anything here or that you read from the Catholic encyclopedia, please feel free to ask .....

thank you for a very full and complete explanation.

i had misunderstood my particular set of circumstances as apostacy. your post makes it clear that i am in schism.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to debiwebi again.

thanks again, and god bless

lh