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Apostasy or just a difference of Opinion?

reddogs

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Apostasy (from Greek αποστασία, meaning a defection or revolt, from απο, apo, "away, apart", στασις, stasis, "standing")
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy

Many have come into the Adventist section with a difference of opinion and felt as if they are apostates because of that so they don't consider themselves or use the Adventist icon and deprive themselves of the chance to discuss their understanding. I feel that is not the correct or the intent of the rules as we all are entitled to have a personal view even in religions matters. I have a different view on many subjects in Adventism as in my family we were encoraged to apply what I call a "discerning eye" to test and balance some of the extremes of what people did or said.

'Back in the day', in spanish churches "La Senora White" was the rule not the exception, and if the sentence began with that phrase anything that followed was not a suggestion but "to be obeyed without question".

In anglo churches "Sister White says" had a totally different conatation as it was held more as "good counsel" being given. So if anyone said the name of the "messenger" and proceed with a quotation we filtered with a "a "discerning eye" to see who and what context she was being used.

Thus I saw firsthand how Ellen White was use correctly, or sometimes incorrectly to give understanding, and developed a opinion that depending on the source, her writings could be misused to the extreme or be of great spiritual encouragement. But that is not to say that I dont believe she was not inspired as on that I have a unshakeable belief.

But the misuse and misapplication of Ellen G. White left many scarred and disheartened, instead of being encouraged and uplifted, and for the results we need not look further than the choir I am preaching to here.
So to those that were affect aversely I can honestly say I understand and hope that you can set aside the well meant but sometimes inappropriate application of Ellen Whites writings, but when she is honestly read and applied the truth shines and illuminates.

So if there are those who refrain from calling themselves believers in the Adventist message because they feel they diverge from the main body of "Adventist" belief, God's truth can still be found, I say come and let us come together to study and seek understanding from God so we are "rightly dividing the word of truth."

24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. John 5:24
 

reddogs

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Ellen G. White wrote Steps to Christ and Great Controvesy which are clear in their context and purpose. But some other books are compilations which have just a sentence here of there on a point which can lead to a incorrect or unclear conclusion, here is what I wrote on this before:

"We must prayerful and carefully study her writing, throwing aside all 'prejudice' and 'tradition' that we have built up, as how we respond to Ellen White's prophetic gift will in considerable measure determine the shape of the Seventh-day Adventist future. The challenge facing Adventism is, essentially the same as the Jews of Jesus time, whether its emphasis on Ellen White's spiritual gift and "traditions" that cropped up around her writings would lead it to disregard her counsel and her example with reference to the other gifts God has given His people. We must through careful study and through the continuing guidance of the Holy Spirit seperate any "traditions" that have crept into some peoples beliefs of the truths she was given and shares with the church and we must place it in the role she always insisted on as the "lesser light" with the focus on scripture.

Now if I were to say this in some Adventist churches, some people would be apt to throw up their hands in horror and call for open discussion to stop; that is, they revert to the seeming safety of their original position and draw up inflexible lines of defense to protect themselves from unwanted change.

Others might throw up their hands in horror and declare there is poison in the pot, so they leave the church and encourage others to do the same; that is, they reject their original position entirely, to the extent that some of them even abandon Christianity. A lot Adventists have taken each of these stances; that is a prime reason why the church is afflicted with unhealthy tensions at present.

But their will be others that hold dear the truth of God and the Spirit of Prophecy and seek more light and look at the problems caused by adopting unbending attitudes on "traditions" some had attributed to her, and seek how they might respond to it adequately; that is, they revise their veiw (or transform)their original understanding of "traditions" some had attributed to her, in the light of the evidence.

Just as a example, is her strong words about playing games. "In plunging into amusements, match games, pugilistic performances," she wrote, the students at Battle Creek College "declared to the world that Christ was not their leader in any of these things. All this called forth the warning from God." A powerful statement, it and others like it have led many to the conclusion that God frowns on all games and ball playing. But here, as on all extreme interpretations, one should use caution. After all, the very next sentence reads: "Now that which burdens me is the danger of going into extremes on the other side" (Fundamentals of Christian Education, p. 378).

As the following statements demonstrate, Ellen White did not hold for either extreme on the topic of ball playing and games. Speaking of parents and teachers, she wrote: "If they would gather the children close to them, and show that they love them, and would manifest an interest in all their efforts, and even in their sports, sometimes even being a child among children, they would make the children very happy, and would gain their love and win their confidence" (ibid., p. 18).

I think the principle here was "everything in moderation", as we have seen how college sports can actually drive the decisions of some schools and lead coaches and alumni to cheat, lie, and engage in to say the least "unsavoury' behaviour in the going to the extreme to win, destroying the very ideals of good sportsmanship that they are supposedly teaching their charges."

Some Adventist hold a view that all competative sports and games 'Idtt is vorbaden', I do not agree with that view, so does that make me a apostate?
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Some Adventist hold a view that all competative sports and games 'Idtt is vorbaden', I do not agree with that view, so does that make me a apostate?

The difference is that sports does not have a church established position. So it is more questionable when the subject is how many of the so called fundamental beliefs one does not accept. The early SDA's always rejected the idea of a creed but in effect we now have one and as a consequence we have the question of how much disagreement with the fundamentals can one be and still be called an SDA. We are always free to call ourselves whatever we like but in fact we have to consider what is acceptable to others in the SDA church. And that concern for what others think leads many of us to question how we use the designation SDA.
 
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reddogs

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Well my brother, and I say this to myself also, I think we should all use the SDA designation until such time as it becomes clear and distinct that the Adventist church has left God. When that day comes then we all can walk away with a clear conscience and Gods blessing. But until that day comes, there is no other church or institution that follows the word of God and his truth as closely and vehemently as the Adventist church and any other is a compromise of truth, and I believe it will be till the end........

What say ye?
 
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freeindeed2

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Well my brother, and I say this to myself also, I think we should all use the SDA designation until such time as it becomes clear and distinct that the Adventist church has left God. When that day comes then we all can walk away with a clear conscience and Gods blessing. But until that day comes, there is no other church or institution that follows the word of God and his truth as closely and vehemently as the Adventist church and any other is a compromise of truth, and I believe it will be till the end........

What say ye?
I would expect nothing less from you. You believe that SDA's have the best 'brand' of Christianity on the market, and you have to follow your convictions.;)
 
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reddogs

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No freeindeed2, I do not pick brands, or churchs, or institutions, I choose God's truth and follow it wherever it takes me, if the Adventist church ever strays from it, then I will part ways from it, as I follow Jesus not a organization, brand, group, or the most current religious style or fad.......
 
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freeindeed2

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No freeindeed2, I do not pick brands, or churchs, or institutions, I choose God's truth and follow it wherever it takes me, if the Adventist church ever strays from it, then I will part ways from it, as I follow Jesus not a organization, brand, group, or the most current religious style or fad.......
I understand completely! That's why it's so important for each of us to be led by the Holy Spirit who gives us conviction in the depths of our souls. Human wisdom has nothing over the wisdom of God. I have no doubt that Jesus is true to his promises of men (and women) being led into all truth through His Spirit. (Jesus is the truth!)
 
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Adventist Dissident

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I understand completely! That's why it's so important for each of us to be led by the Holy Spirit who gives us conviction in the depths of our souls. Human wisdom has nothing over the wisdom of God. I have no doubt that Jesus is true to his promises of men (and women) being led into all truth through His Spirit. (Jesus is the truth!)
So another words how adventist to you have to be in order to be an adventist?
 
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reddogs

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It is more, what truth do you have to embrace in order to be part of Gods remnant, spiritual Israel in the end time.....?

Embracing false truth or incorrect doctrines/dogma and 'traditons of man' is certainly not the way, at least not to my understanding....
 
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freeindeed2

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It is more, what truth do you have to embrace in order to be part of Gods remnant, spiritual Israel in the end time.....?

Embracing false truth or incorrect doctrines/dogma and 'traditons of man' is certainly not the way, at least not to my understanding....
Jesus is the truth, and HE has promised that his Spirit will guide us into all truth.

"When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not be presenting his own ideas; he will be telling you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future." John 16:13

"But I will send you the Counselor [Comforter, Encourager, Advocate]--the Spirit of truth. He will come to you from the Father and will tell you all about me." John 15:26

We can trust that he will do what he has promised.
 
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freeindeed2

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But if we reject it or turn away from it, then what?
Then we rejected the truth and his Spirit continues to work in us to reconcile us to God through the shed blood of Jesus.

I'm sure some have rejected Christ by refusing what the Holy Spirit is trying to convict them of in their hearts. But for those who are lifting Jesus up as their SOURCE of salvation, nobody has any business telling them that they are lost. Jesus is salvation. He is the truth. Continue to lift him up and NOTHING in his place.
 
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freeindeed2

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Maybe we have to look at the 'lifting' as that seems to be relying on self or salvation by works of our own, instead of a intimate relationship with Jesus.......
'Lifting' up Jesus takes place after he has saved us, not before. Why would someone who has not been saved by Christ lift up Jesus. They would likely focus attention on themselves and their work (their ability to follow laws, their ability to choose God, etc.) and not what He does for them.

It doesn't get any more 'intimate' than God living INSIDE the believer.
 
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reddogs

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So what is faith for if we do it all ourselves (sounds like the OSAS), and even Jesus had to depend totally on God the father, so if we are given salvation because we 'lift' (which you havent really defined) what is the second coming for, something doesnt ring true in that line of belief......
 
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Adventist Dissident

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It is more, what truth do you have to embrace in order to be part of Gods remnant, spiritual Israel in the end time.....?

Embracing false truth or incorrect doctrines/dogma and 'traditons of man' is certainly not the way, at least not to my understanding....
i beleve this is what I ment when i said how advent do you have to be to be an adventist.


1. do I have to belive the sda chruch is the remenant chruch to belive the sda message is the best option to understand God love and what is going on in ther world and the chruch.

2. do you have to believe in the Ivestigative Judgement to be amember of the sda chruch?

3. Do you have to believe in 2300 day prophey to be a member of the SDA chruch?

4. do you have to believe in The Sabbath to be member os the sda chruch?

5. do you have to believe in the State of the dead in order to be a member of the SDA chruch

6. so you have to beleve in EGW as a prophet in order to be an SDA?

7. Do you have to be a vegitarian to be an sda?

8. Do you have to believe in the young earth creation approx 6000 years or can you believe in something else

9. Can you believe in the 2nd centuray date for the book of daniel or do you have to believe in 6th century dating.

10 Do you have to believe in the visible second coming with christ taking his saints to heaven or can you believe something else.

11. do you have to have believe in the post fall nature of christ or can you belive in the pre fall nature and still believe in the sda chruch?

these are just some issues to consider.
 
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reddogs

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I believe in Gods truth as set in His word which includes the testimonies of Jesus Christ and the Commandments, if that puts me in the SDA church so be it. So if you follow God's truth and what he has set forth you are fine, but if you follow Baal and his day or false doctrines or 'mans traditions' then you have a problem.....
 
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freeindeed2

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So what is faith for if we do it all ourselves (sounds like the OSAS), and even Jesus had to depend totally on God the father, so if we are given salvation because we 'lift' (which you havent really defined) what is the second coming for, something doesnt ring true in that line of belief......
Nobody said anything about being given salvation because we "lift" anything. And you certainly know that I haven't said anything about us "doing it all ourselves". Salvation is completely a gift from God.
 
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