Anyone interested in musical acoustics?

[ChetSinger]

It's the most science-minded hobby I have, the study of the acoustics of musical instruments.

It's an esoteric hobby, but maybe not in this place. Does anyone else here share this?

 

[selfinflikted]

I suppose you could say I'm tangentially interested. I'm a practicing musician with a semi-professional home studio.

 

[ChetSinger]

That looks cool. I especially like the Nord. I did some of my first acoustic modeling experiments on a Nord Modular.

 

[selfinflikted]

That looks cool. I especially like the Nord. I did some of my first acoustic modeling experiments on a Nord Modular.

I am in the process of selling my house and building a new one. After all that brouhaha settles down, I REALLY want to get into modular synths. I am a synth fanatic, and that is one area of synthing I've left untouched. I'm very interested in that.

Did you have anything in particular with regards to acoustics you wanted to talk about?

 

[Embedded]

One of my students did an interesting research project one semester. He is a flute player and he was curious to see whether there was any difference between flute material. He made (as exactly as he could) flute bodies from silver, brass, steel, and plastic. All of them used a the same mouthpiece. He also designed a pretty interesting setup to blow on the mouthpiece consistently... sort of artificial lips. He went through various simple scales at each end of the range and some in the middle. All sound went through a spectrum analyzer. Basically he concluded while there were noticeable differences between each flute-body it was far greater than the differences between each material.

 

[ChetSinger]

I am in the process of selling my house and building a new one. After all that brouhaha settles down, I REALLY want to get into modular synths. I am a synth fanatic, and that is one area of synthing I've left untouched. I'm very interested in that.

Do you have NI Reaktor in your studio? If so, there are some software modulars you can download for it. They don't have hands-on knobs, of course, but you could experiment with them for a while without any cash outlay.

Did you have anything in particular with regards to acoustics you wanted to talk about?

Not in particular. Recently I've been studying clarinets and brass, but I'm interested in just about anything.

 

[ChetSinger]

One of my students did an interesting research project one semester. He is a flute player and he was curious to see whether there was any difference between flute material. He made (as exactly as he could) flute bodies from silver, brass, steel, and plastic. All of them used a the same mouthpiece. He also designed a pretty interesting setup to blow on the mouthpiece consistently... sort of artificial lips. He went through various simple scales at each end of the range and some in the middle. All sound went through a spectrum analyzer. Basically he concluded while there were noticeable differences between each flute-body it was far greater than the differences between each material.

That's interesting. Did he attempt to make toneholes? Did he use the "lips" to play harmonics? Do you know if the plastic stood apart from the metals?

 

[selfinflikted]

Do you have NI Reaktor in your studio? If so, there are some software modulars you can download for it. They don't have hands-on knobs, of course, but you could experiment with them for a while without any cash outlay.

No I don't. You'll probably think this is silly, but I'm still rather put off by softsynths. I don't own a single one, in fact, at least not on my DAW. I do have a couple of softies on my iPad and iPhone, but that's just for when musical inspiration strikes me while I'm mobile. I don't record or produce with them at all. Softsynths can sound nice, to be sure, but they do not compare to traditional hardware ones. At least not to my extremely discerning ears. Plus, I like knobs - and lots of them.

I am a HUGE fan of hardware VA synths. I suppose if you really wanted to be technical and literal, those could be considered softsynths. But, meh.

ETA: Sorry to have slightly taken this thread off course with my synth shens.

 

[Resha Caner]

At one point in my career I led a research team trying to reduce NVH (noise, vibration, and harshness) for diesel engines. It's not exactly music, but the science of acoustics was important to our work.

 

[ChetSinger]

At one point in my career I led a research team trying to reduce NVH (noise, vibration, and harshness) for diesel engines. It's not exactly music, but the science of acoustics was important to our work.

Neat. In the 1990s there were efforts at Stanford to design algorithms that generated engine "noises, vibrations, and harshness" using the physics of engine construction. The goal was to replace sampled engine sounds in video games with such algorithms. I don't know how it turned out, though.

 

[Resha Caner]

Neat. In the 1990s there were efforts at Stanford to design algorithms that generated engine "noises, vibrations, and harshness" using the physics of engine construction. The goal was to replace sampled engine sounds in video games with such algorithms. I don't know how it turned out, though.

Oddly enough, that was considered for use in real machines. In order to improve fuel economy people are experimenting with engines that turn off rather than idle, or that recover braking energy to use for launch. Some studies have shown that drivers don't like how that "feels". They're used to getting audible feedback that the engine is delivering the power they're requesting. So, some tried putting speakers in the cab to provide that feedback.

It was never an idea I pushed. It seemed a little silly to me, but ...

 

[Embedded]

That's interesting. Did he attempt to make toneholes? Did he use the "lips" to play harmonics? Do you know if the plastic stood apart from the metals?

No toneholes (except on the silver flute body)... he varied the length to match certain tones as produced by the standard flute toneholes. Worked out a simple formula for that.

No.. he tried to keep the lips as static as possible. You know... fixing as many variables as possible while varying one at a time.

No. As I recall no particular material stood apart from any other.

The basic result was that in a single blind (would double blind be possible?) that most any listener would not be able to tell which particular material was used for the flute body by the sound alone. Perhaps a very very discerning ear could tell them apart but we did not have a sample of very very discerning listeners to test that hypothesis.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

I suppose you could say I'm tangentially interested. I'm a practicing musician with a semi-professional home studio.

Oh wow. That's quite a set-up. I'm trying to get to grips with Logic Pro at the moment, just as a hobby, very much a beginner. What DAW are you using? And what style of music are you doing?

 

[Embedded]

Oddly enough, that was considered for use in real machines. In order to improve fuel economy people are experimenting with engines that turn off rather than idle, or that recover braking energy to use for launch. Some studies have shown that drivers don't like how that "feels". They're used to getting audible feedback that the engine is delivering the power they're requesting. So, some tried putting speakers in the cab to provide that feedback.

It was never an idea I pushed. It seemed a little silly to me, but ...

I drove a rental BMW SUV in California last summer. It had the auto-engine-off feature as standard and as the default. I didn't notice it the first few times but yes... it is very disconcerting. It was easy to turn the feature off. Otherwise it had no particular effect on performance that I could tell. Pretty amazing how smooth and instantaneous they managed to make it.

In heavy traffic or long-ish stops I can see the utility of it and how it might help with overall emissions/passenger.mile but there needs to be a threshold adjustment for the 5 second stops (or less) that are common at stop signs. As I recall the threshold was set quite low... about 2-3 seconds. I imagine that they use some sort of optimizing algorithm to minimize fuel consumption that automatically adjusts to driving conditions and style.

I didn't have that much time to play with it. Only had it for a week and didn't drive all that much (even in LA!)

In any case... it has been implemented on, at least, some BMW SUVs.

 

[selfinflikted]

Oh wow. That's quite a set-up. I'm trying to get to grips with Logic Pro at the moment, just as a hobby, very much a beginner. What DAW are you using? And what style of music are you doing?

Logic is good. I prefer Cubase (which is what I use). It's kind of the "anti-ProTools" in my opinion. Had I had a Mac when I first started getting into music production, I probably would've gone the ProTools route. But as it was, I went with Cubase. I've used it for years and it's a very nice and robust software suite.

Mainly, I produce electronic music because of my love for synthesis. But I write and record everything from classical music to rock to metal to hardcore aggrotech (a subgenre of electronic dance music). Aggrotech is my favorite genre though. (for a taste of what I mostly write, check out bands like Grendel, Funker Vogt, CombiChrist, and Velvet Acid Christ)

PM me if you want/need help with your DAW, or just want to talk music production in general or hear some of my stuff. I hate to take this thread too far off course.

 

[Resha Caner]

In heavy traffic or long-ish stops I can see the utility of it and how it might help with overall emissions/passenger.mile but there needs to be a threshold adjustment for the 5 second stops (or less) that are common at stop signs. As I recall the threshold was set quite low... about 2-3 seconds. I imagine that they use some sort of optimizing algorithm to minimize fuel consumption that automatically adjusts to driving conditions and style.

I wasn't as involved with the performance side at that time, but I do recall that being an issue. You obviously don't want the engine shutting off during a panic stop because the driver may need the torque in an emergency.

Since my engine NVH assignment ended, I've been much more involved with drivetrain performance and controls. One of the big problems is making sure the controls don't get in the way of the driver. Electronics can do a lot, but many of the cool ideas we engineers have are not well-received by the general public.

 

[ChetSinger]

No toneholes (except on the silver flute body)... he varied the length to match certain tones as produced by the standard flute toneholes. Worked out a simple formula for that.

No.. he tried to keep the lips as static as possible. You know... fixing as many variables as possible while varying one at a time.

No. As I recall no particular material stood apart from any other.

The basic result was that in a single blind (would double blind be possible?) that most any listener would not be able to tell which particular material was used for the flute body by the sound alone. Perhaps a very very discerning ear could tell them apart but we did not have a sample of very very discerning listeners to test that hypothesis.

Thanks for that. I once took a Musical Acoustics course in college and remember being told by the professor that a trumpet made of plastic would sound the same as one made of brass. I was a trumpet player and thought he was full of baloney.

Since then I've understood why he said that. The pressure waves in wind instruments are longitudinal so all bores made of suitably stiff materials should sound pretty much the same.

It's neat to hear that your student's results have verified what he said.

 

[Embedded]

I wasn't as involved with the performance side at that time, but I do recall that being an issue. You obviously don't want the engine shutting off during a panic stop because the driver may need the torque in an emergency.

True... but I did try that in an empty lot. The re-start to accelerating is damn near instantaneous. Whatever BMW did, they did it very well.

Since my engine NVH assignment ended, I've been much more involved with drivetrain performance and controls. One of the big problems is making sure the controls don't get in the way of the driver. Electronics can do a lot, but many of the cool ideas we engineers have are not well-received by the general public.

In an earlier trip to LA (San Dimas and Santa Monica) I visited a former student who was working for AC Propulsion. AC developed the technology that they license to Tesla for electric cars. My student worked at the R&D facility and I got a tour of their labs. At the time BMW (again!) was testing their Mini-Cooper cars converted to the AC system. I got to test drive one of the Minis. One of the things they tried to do was to make the car "feel" like one was driving a car with a conventional IC engine. Even so... when ones foot is off the "gas" the car slows down noticeably quicker than with an IC engine. This is due to the regenerative braking... whenever one is decelerating they try to make it more gradual via programming of the motor controls. Still, since it slows down a little more quickly than expected the brake lights are turned on automatically even though ones foot does not touch the brake pedal.

Much of what we are used to will change as time goes by. Eventually I think that all-electric cars will be the norm. Also... more mass-transit. I am a big fan of trains, subways, and just about any rail system. Buses, not so much.

Most cities I visit I try and plan it using their mass transit system. My next visit to LA will be like that. Takes a little longer to get some places but LA traffic is notorious! It can also take a really long time to just pick up the rental car and return it. So it works out in the end. Also a heckuvalot cheaper when it is one person.

 

[durangodawood]

Fascinating topic.

Working musician here. I havent examined this scientifically tho.

 

[Resha Caner]

Most cities I visit I try and plan it using their mass transit system. My next visit to LA will be like that. Takes a little longer to get some places but LA traffic is notorious! It can also take a really long time to just pick up the rental car and return it. So it works out in the end. Also a heckuvalot cheaper when it is one person.

Your attitude doesn't sound American. Where are you from? (Just generally - Europe, Asia, etc. I realize you may not want to give too much away on the Internet)

I prefer public transit myself, but that's largely not an option where I live. Years ago I was part of a petition to improve public transit in my area, but it didn't work out. Americans love their cars and love their independence. Plus, unless you're on the coasts the populations and distances don't pay off for public transit ... yet.

At the time BMW (again!) was testing their Mini-Cooper cars converted to the AC system.

I almost bought a Mini-Cooper. Again, though, location, location, location. The service in my area isn't that good.

Much of what we are used to will change as time goes by. Eventually I think that all-electric cars will be the norm. Also... more mass-transit. I am a big fan of trains, subways, and just about any rail system. Buses, not so much.

Well, maybe. Electric has it's down side as well. My experience is with heavy equipment, not the auto industry, but the studies I've seen don't bode well for electric because of power density and response issues (though you make it sound as if BMW is progressing well on those issues). So, it only sells to green people who don't mind the negatives. Don't forget that internal combustion is looking for alternatives as well. If a good renewable fuel can be found, and with the trend in reduced emissions, it could remain competitive well into the future.