• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

any support for Israel

Call me Nic

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 27, 2017
1,534
1,628
Texas
✟530,101.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
So, a religion that believes there is a Messiah, but believes that Jesus is NOT that Messiah is not an antichrist religion according to 1 John 2:22?

I think I'm going to stick with what the Bible says on this one.

And by the way, Jesus LITERALLY calls the Jews of his day of their father the devil in John 8:44-45 (Jews and Jewish leaders of which the modern Jewish religion descends from by the way); and also, the Bible says that wrath has come upon their religion to the uttermost (1 Thessalonians 2:13-16).

And I did quote Genesis 3 for a reason - because all who confess not that Jesus is come in the flesh is antichrist according to 1 John 4:3, and there are many religions, including the Jews religion, that say that Jesus did not resurrect. They have enmity with Christianity. Period. It's what the Bible says.
 
Reactions: Knee V
Upvote 0

gideon123

Humble Servant of God
Dec 25, 2011
1,185
583
USA
✟66,591.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The advice above, not to transfer hatreds and prejudices, is very good advice.

There are very powerful forces at work in the Middle East now, political forces and spiritual forces. This is an extremely dangerous time, because if more countries in the ME possess nuclear weapons, the situation will be highly unstable. Therefore, Israel has a serious concern if Iran and Saudi Arabia arm themselves with nuclear bombs. Tragically, the world has no 'trusted police force' to stop nuclear proliferation. The possibility of a greater war is very real, and some players might believe that a greater war is necessary ... to stop a nuclear war.

The plans of men are always fragile and perilous.

All we can do ...is to PRAY!!
 
Upvote 0

Blade

Veteran
Site Supporter
Dec 29, 2002
8,176
4,002
USA
✟654,827.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes we pray for Israel. I pray for them as I do any other nation. For Israel they do not follow Yeshua nor believe in Him. As it is written Christ is the way the truth and the life. NO MAN can come to the Father but by/through Christ. Jewish or not.. you HAVE to come to the Father by way of Christ. He is the DOOR. No one can climb over or around. Many will and do try.

Now I do not believe I have replaced the Jewish people. What was meant for them 1st then the WORLD they rejected. So He gave what was theres 1st to others..other nations to make them jealous. And I don't always agree with Pastor Haggee. But he is my brother I love him I pray for him. I will not speak evil of my Fathers CHILDREN! That would be VERY unwise. Hagge belongs to a GOD. Me knowing Christ gives me NO right to speak evil negative so forth. If I dont love him that I can see and hear.. then love for the Father is not in me.

So I pray for Israel that is back in there own land NOT because they follow Christ nor believe in Him. They have a name for Christ that is NOT a nice one. So the Father put them back in there land for HIS name sake. He keeps His word. He made them a promise. He love them oh so much.. as He does the WORLD. But theres a price when the WORD comes to you 1st. There were to take His word to the world.. they did not. And Satan thinks if he can "wipe them off the planet" then Christ will NEVER return. See is it not written Christ will not come back till they call for Him.. the one they pierced. Yet HE will save them all. What ALL that means.. I do not know.. but praise GOD He is is NEVER wrong.

Its a night mar for any Jewish person to come to Christ. Anyway...they are the time clock. We watch them.. and I love them so much. And..if you know Christ..you are just as JEWISH so to speak.. as our brother Paul by the sweet sweet Holy Spirit said. Its what was BORN AGAIN. Its the exact same as what is in them that receive Christ. There is ONE body. So watch them pray for them.. He has been tring to gather them from the start. They keep running away..
 
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,525
1,359
72
Sebring, FL
✟858,076.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat


You have a habit of changing the subject in the middle of a sentence.

Do you remember what Rev. Billy Graham said about Jesus and the Jews?

Rev. Graham: "Jesus was born a Jew, lived a Jew, and died a Jew."

That should give you something to think about.
 
Upvote 0

Call me Nic

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 27, 2017
1,534
1,628
Texas
✟530,101.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
How did I change the subject in the middle of my point?
 
Upvote 0

Call me Nic

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 27, 2017
1,534
1,628
Texas
✟530,101.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You're speaking of the flesh, and are regarding that which is apparent to you carnally.

I am speaking of the spirit, and that which is regarding the heart, and the mind.

Spiritually, Jews are antichrist because they reject the Messiah, if it is that they do. Jesus wasn't spiritually the same as those people. Culturally, ethnically, and traditionally he was - but what he believes was not the same thing that the Pharisees and scribes believed.

Thus is the reason why they killed him.
 
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,525
1,359
72
Sebring, FL
✟858,076.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat

How did I change the subject in the middle of my point?


For instance, in Post #121, you start off talking about Genesis 3, the Expulsion from Eden, then change the subject to Gnostics, then change the subject to those who deny the Resurrection. That's way too complicated and too confusing for one sentence.
 
Upvote 0

Call me Nic

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 27, 2017
1,534
1,628
Texas
✟530,101.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
This is post #121:
"So, a religion that believes there is a Messiah, but believes that Jesus is NOT that Messiah is not an antichrist religion according to 1 John 2:22?

I think I'm going to stick with what the Bible says on this one.

And by the way, Jesus LITERALLY calls the Jews of his day of their father the devil in John 8:44-45 (Jews and Jewish leaders of which the modern Jewish religion descends from by the way); and also, the Bible says that wrath has come upon their religion to the uttermost (1 Thessalonians 2:13-16).

And I did quote Genesis 3 for a reason - because all who confess not that Jesus is come in the flesh is antichrist according to 1 John 4:3, and there are many religions, including the Jews religion, that say that Jesus did not resurrect. They have enmity with Christianity. Period. It's what the Bible says."

1 John 2:22 is not Genesis 3. Where do I mentioned Gnosticism in this? I'm only talking about the religion of Judaism. The subject wasn't ever changed to talking about those who deny the Resurrection. It always HAS BEEN about those who deny the Resurrection; again... those who are antichrist.

So, what exactly is your point? Because all you've managed to do is claim that I keep changing the subject, and have provided no scriptures to base anything you've said off of, even though I have been speaking about the same subject the entire time (the antichrist jewish religion), and have provided scriptures to base my reasoning and beliefs off of. What's the deal man? This seems like an unequal yoke here.
 
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,525
1,359
72
Sebring, FL
✟858,076.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat


I certainly don't see what Genesis 3 has to do with your determination to condemn Jews.

If you didn't mention Gnosticism, then you must not know what you are saying.

Do you agree that God called Abraham? Perhaps we should start from there.
 
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,525
1,359
72
Sebring, FL
✟858,076.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat



"The antichrist Jewish religion"??????

I can't think of a more useless phrase. I think that the Devil wants people to throw around phrases like "antichrist" so that the term will lose its force. The words are worn out, as someone has said.

Do you realize that sixty-four of the sixty-six books of the Bible were written by people from a Jewish background?
 
Upvote 0

Meowzltov

Freylekher Yid
Aug 3, 2014
18,648
4,481
64
Southern California
✟68,243.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Others
I am not that familiar with Hagee, but I'm all too familiar with the diseased theology of Replacement theology. It is the fertile manure in which anti-Semitism has grown for 2000 years. Most churches, including the Catholic Church, gave it up after the holocaust when they saw its fruits. Others gave it up after 1948 when Israel became a nation, because they had to concede that Israel/the Jews were not a dead people but still had a part to play in God's plan. And yet still others joined in the rejection after the six day war in 1967 which was absolutely miraculous -- it is almost impossible to deny that God is behind the success of Israel. The point is that recent history has proven Replacement Theology to be a lie, and good riddance.
 
Reactions: Dale
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,525
1,359
72
Sebring, FL
✟858,076.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat



When we turn to the great commentators, in John Gill's commentary on John 8:44, Gill doesn't assume that the Rabbis of his time, or modern times, share the faults of the scribes & Pharisees at the time of Christ. Instead, he examines the passage to see what we can learn about the nature of the Devil and his plans. Interestingly enough, Gill takes Adam and Eve to be victims of the Devil, and not simply as condemned outcasts. God did provide a plan for their redemption.


Link:
John 8:44 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
 
Upvote 0

Drought of the Heart

Active Member
Site Supporter
Jun 2, 2018
365
251
Houston
✟100,337.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married



I understand the Cross did this Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


No piece of land is not covered in blood at this point and the New Israel is our hearts since earth will pass away...I think there is much confusion on this and I believe God loves all that follow. God loves those Palestinians as well as he loves us...
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,818
29,483
Pacific Northwest
✟826,095.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others

Agreed. I would add though that I think Scripture offers enough to suggest that non-believing Israel is still Israel in some sense, as the Apostle indicates in Romans 3, that the unfaithfulness of some of Israel does not nullify God's faithfulness; and in Romans 11 the Apostle ultimately look forward, hopefully, toward the salvation of all Israel. How, and in what way, that ultimately looks or plays out Scripture doesn't say, but I think we can share in the Apostle's hope here: that God has not forgotten or abandoned the people of His ancient covenant, and while non-believing Israel may be separated from the fullness that is in Christ, they are not abandoned. In the end, God alone knows.

Of course, fundamental here, is that Israel was never about lines on a map, it was about people and covenant. Israel was still Israel even in the Exile and Diaspora. When the kingdom was divided north and south, the southern kingdom of Judah was still Israel. Biblically I accept that the People of God are Israel.

Simply drawing lines on a map and calling it "Israel" doesn't make it biblical Israel. I'm not against the State of Israel, I don't hate it, I accept it as a secular state existing in the world with the inherent right to exist and to its own national sovereign autonomy (just like any other nation on the planet). And I wish for there to be peace, I wish for the people there--Jew, Muslim, Christian, and other--to have peace, prosperity, and every other thing that comes from having a relatively peaceful country. But I have no religious feelings toward the secular state of Israel in the Levant, it is not prophetic, it is not a biblical entity, it is not special in any theological or religious way: it's just a country, no different than the United States, Argentina, or Sri Lanka. I wish and pray for peace because I am called by Christ to love and pray for my neighbor, to be a peacemaker, and to live peaceably: therefore I hope for, and pray for, and wish for peace for my neighbor. Regardless of who my neighbor is or where they live.

And it is precisely because in Christ I am called to love and pray for my fellow human beings that I can condemn both revolutionary terrorists and terrorism, and their acts of violence and hate on one side, as well as state terrorists and terrorism, and their acts of violence and hate on the other.

This is not a dichotomy of having to choose whether I support the state of Israel or I support the Palestinians; I support peace. I support love. I support ending hostilities. I support justice. I support compassion. I condemn atrocities, violence, hate, and evil regardless of who commits it and against whom it is committed against. If you are ideologically compelled to support violence, or ignore violence, when it is committed by the powerful against the weak simply because it is your "side" doing it, then you are in opposition to the central ethical teachings of Jesus Christ, His Church, Holy Scripture, and two thousand years of Christian religion.

There is no room for hatred against our fellow man in Christ's religion. To hate your fellow man is to hate Jesus Christ.

"If anyone says, 'I love God,' and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." - 1 John 4:20

-CryptoLutheran
 
Reactions: Knee V
Upvote 0

Adam Raffell

Director of Ministry Development CCI
Aug 23, 2018
9
5
40
Yorkshire
Visit site
✟23,953.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The key scripture is Romans 11:23 "And they also, IF they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again."

I agree with Dave-W's position at that the conclusion of Romans 11, Paul clarifies very exactly what he means by "all Israel". Israel here clearly includes the Jewish people.

"As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable." (Romans 11:28-29).

This doesn't mean Paul thinks there are multiple 'ways' of salvation. It doesn't mean a birthright guarantees being one of God's people (that was the whole point in Romans 9:6ff about not all who are descended from Israel being Israel.) But Paul is only reinforcing here a point perfectly familiar to many Jews, that their place in the covenant comes from God's promise, not just from the family they were born into.

Romans 9-11 is all about Paul wrestling with a paradox: 1) Jews are God's people and will always be so (9:1-5). 2) Being God's people means believing in Jesus (10:10-13), but Paul's own people do not. That is the paradox 3) Has God then rejected them: In the strongest terms, NO! (11:1 and 11:11) 4) Why? Because God is going to do something amazing! "For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?" (11:15). It's part of a mystery of the gospel, which is about every one of us being disobedient to God, but receiving God's grace (11:30-32).

Paul is categorically convinced that his Jewish brothers and sisters ("Zealous for God but their zeal is not based on knowledge" etc, etc, (10:2), will receive grace. It's a mystery because he didn't know what that looks like in practice. I think we do well to avoid talking about mass 'conversions', Jews becoming Christians, etc. This is more likely to be a development taking place internally within Judaism, or as a consequence of Trinitarian theology which directly identifies Jesus with the God of Israel (i.e. you can't believe in one without implying faith in the other). Whatever the exact outworking, this 'mystery' is part of Paul's teaching that all Israel will be saved.

This is critical to understanding the State of Israel too. When it comes to Israel, we are talking about God's covenantal promises to them being fulfilled. If Paul clearly says they remain God's people, then the only logical conclusion would be that the promises remain relevant too pertaining to restoration to the Land.

As Christians we are called to bless Israel: both the Jewish people, and the Nation of Israel.
 
Last edited:
Reactions: Dale
Upvote 0

Barney2.0

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 1, 2017
6,003
2,336
Los Angeles
✟473,721.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Israel has my support, but not because it was founded by God or any nonsense like that, but because it’s probably the only free society and real democracy in the Middle East.
 
Upvote 0

Barney2.0

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 1, 2017
6,003
2,336
Los Angeles
✟473,721.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
That’s a complete manipulation of the verses to promote hatred against Jews, as was used in Medieval Western Europe. Jesus referred to those Jews who hypocritically rejected him despite knowing he was the Messiah as children of the devil. It wasn’t aimed at every Jew, considering Jesus was a Jew, and all his followers were Jews.
 
Upvote 0

Mountainmanbob

Goat Whisperer
Site Supporter
Sep 6, 2016
15,961
10,816
74
92040
✟1,118,913.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I support Israel when they do good stuff, I criticize them when they hurt civilians.

It seems that usually it is the civilians that are attacking them that put themselves In Harm's Way.

While back with the Border clashes the protesters were lobbing bombs and rocks at Israel. The Israelis dropped pamphlets telling them to back away from the fence or they may get hurt and sure enough a few got killed. The warning was there.

The older troublemakers were telling the young ones to rush the Border as they stayed way in the background not having the guts to do it themselves knowing what would happen.
M-Bob
 
Upvote 0