Any Leftist 'Radicals' Here?

Silent Bob · Oct 17, 2006

susanann said:
If you had visited communist china, communist soviet union, communist cuba, communist poland, communist east germany, communist ukraine, etc. then you would also be very disillusioned against communistic forms of government, perhaps more so.

Communist governemnts dont believe in a free market or liberty of the individuals, but then neither do current repubicans or big businesses.

And if I had lived in Europe during the Dark Ages I would be disillusioned towards Christianity as well. I never claimed that Communism the way it was put in effect in all of the above countries is something I agree with. I do agree with Marx and Engels not Stalin and Castro.

But I also have an issue with your idea of a free market and liberty. For whom is the market free in an uncontrolled capitalist system? The labor market is not free and has never been free since it existed.

I am not free to not accept the scraps some employer gives me. I need the money and he knows it and if scraps is all he is willing to give then like an obedient slave I shut up and work. If he asks me to work extra time I have to shut up and keep working otherwise I have a "poor work ethic."

Freedom would only exist if the working masses really do reap the rewards of their true labor. If you make a company half a million a year you should get half a million a year, not a bonus trip to Fiji (aka a shiny bead).

susanann · Oct 17, 2006

Silent Bob said:
I never claimed that Communism the way it was put in effect in all of the above countries is something I agree with. I do agree with Marx and Engels not Stalin and Castro.

But I also have an issue with your idea of a free market and liberty. For whom is the market free in an uncontrolled capitalist system? The labor market is not free and has never been free since it existed.

I am not free to not accept the scraps some employer gives me. I need the money and he knows it and if scraps is all he is willing to give then like an obedient slave I shut up and work. If he asks me to work extra time I have to shut up and keep working otherwise I have a "poor work ethic."

Freedom would only exist if the working masses really do reap the rewards of their true labor. If you make a company half a million a year you should get half a million a year, not a bonus trip to Fiji (aka a shiny bead).

Just as pure communism does not exist, neither does pure capitalism and free markets. If you idealize communism without regards to how it actually existed in soviet union or cuba, then you cant knock capitalism in America - because both are tainted by politicians, rich people, big business, and other abuses.

A better comparison would be to compare the soviet union from 1917 to 1937, with America from 1789 to 1809. In America at least, in its first 20 years, no companies were allowed to become monopolies and workers did not receive scraps but fair free market wages. After 20 years, systems become tainted with abuse from politicians and rich people, which is why radical leftist Tom Jefferson advocated a new revolution every 20 years which would prevent rich corporations, the wealthy, or authoritarian leaders from ever having enough power to oppress the masses or the workers.

ACougar · Oct 17, 2006

The objective in the United Staes should be achieving European levels of consumption, unfortuantly the only thing that's going to drive that kind of conservation is higher prices or government and our government is reluctant to do anything which might cut into the profit margins of thier employers.

It's also important ot recognize that alot of U.S. population growth is due to Migration and not due to Americans having 3-4 children in each family. With about 1 million documented immigrants and roughly 2 million undocumented immigrants a year, U.S. growth from immigration alone is roughly 1% a year. U.S. population growth is in reality a population shift.

Middle class people ussually experiance little if any population growth. In the U.S. population growth is roughly 2.1 per woman and in Canada where the Middle Class is an even larger percentage of the population population women have on average 1.7 children. It should be obvious that the way to curb world population growth is to expand the middle class.

susanann said:
America has one of the highest population growth rates in the world. Consumption in America is increasing, not reducing. As America's population passes 400 million, then 500 million, etc. it will require much more of the worlds resources than it has in the past.

ravenscape · Oct 17, 2006

Zero sum games are such a pain.

Maxwell511 · Oct 17, 2006

Ryder said:
Capitalism does a better job of dealing with human nature, if you work hard you are rewarded, if you're lazy you starve.

To the leftist this is a myth. The fundamental philosophical underpinning to all leftist thought is that the worker has no, or little, control over their economic well being.

ACougar · Oct 17, 2006

Maxwell511 said:
To the leftist this is a myth. The fundamental philosophical underpinning to all leftist thought is that the worker has no, or little, control over their economic well being.

That is true in many parts of the world, it's only partially true in the U.S. and I suspect that's why communists enjoy so little support here.

susanann · Oct 18, 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryder

Capitalism does a better job of dealing with human nature, if you work hard you are rewarded, if you're lazy you starve.

Maxwell511 said:
To the leftist this is a myth. The fundamental philosophical underpinning to all leftist thought is that the worker has no, or little, control over their economic well being.

Not just to the leftists.

Lots of people, both on the left, and on the right, work very hard, very, very very hard, much harder than corporate executives, etc. and are not as well rewarded.

TheReasoner · Oct 18, 2006

Ryder said:
Capitalism does a better job of dealing with human nature, if you work hard you are rewarded, if you're lazy you starve.

Oh yeah. And if you are sick too. Darn sick people. Robbing me of my salaries!
All sick and handicapped should starve I say. STARVE!
Hm. Or not.

Besides, it is not wether you work or not which defines how well you fare in a capitalistic nation. It is also wether you were born rich or not. And what occupation you have.

Maxwell511 · Oct 18, 2006

faith guardian said:
Besides, it is not wether you work or not which defines how well you fare in a capitalistic nation. It is also wether you were born rich or not. And what occupation you have.

Forgeting the people born with silver spoons in there mouths. How well you fair in capitalist societies is down to your ability to develope skill sets that are in demand and of short supply not really your occupation. Of course the ability to develop new skill sets decreases depending on age, social and economic conditions which you have no control over.

For example a young 20 year old could develop a skill set that lands him a high paying job in a car manufacturing plant as the years progress his ability to adopt new skills decrease so in 30 years when the plant closes he spends the rest of his life working in McDonald's.

Of course there is always just luck. Ireland has per person I think the second highest rate of millionaires in the world. How they became millionaires was by simply buying a house back before the mid 90's.

susanann · Oct 19, 2006

faith guardian said:
It is also wether you were born rich or not.

Do you think that might have helped Donald Trump succeed?

CCGirl · Oct 19, 2006

susanann said:
Do you think that might have helped Donald Trump succeed?

Out of a population of 300,000,000....there are very few people who have financially "succeeded" like Trump. If the system worked so well, there would be millions of Donald Trump's with obscene wealth. It is luck, mostly. Like being in the right place at the right time.

susanann · Oct 19, 2006

CCGirl said:
Out of a population of 300,000,000....there are very few people who have financially "succeeded" like Trump. If the system worked so well, there would be millions of Donald Trump's with obscene wealth. It is luck, mostly. Like being in the right place at the right time.

I hope I didnt mislead you. Luck had nothing to do with it. Donald Trump was born rich. Also, Donald Trump's father was a real estate develper. Donald Trump also got started in the real estate business by being offered a job by his father. Donald Trump is no "luckier" than his daughter being given an executive position in the Trump organization.

CCGirl · Oct 19, 2006

susanann said:
I hope I didnt mislead you. Luck had nothing to do with it. Donald Trump was born rich. Also, Donald Trump's father was a real estate develper. Donald Trump also got started in the real estate business by being offered a job by his father. Donald Trump is no "luckier" than his daughter being given an executive position in the Trump organization.

Sorry....I thought this was another attempt at trying to have the masses believe that with hard work, you too can financially "succeed"!

Oops!

Borealis · Oct 19, 2006

CCGirl said:
Out of a population of 300,000,000....there are very few people who have financially "succeeded" like Trump. If the system worked so well, there would be millions of Donald Trump's with obscene wealth. It is luck, mostly. Like being in the right place at the right time.

No, it's not luck. It's work. Hard work. I've met people who started with nothing and became successful, because they EARNED it. They asked for nothing but the opportunity to excel, and they took full advantage of it.

Communism denies that opportunity; capitalism embraces it. Does everyone succeed as well as men like Trump and Gates? Of course not. The system works for those who are willing to work for it.

CCGirl · Oct 19, 2006

Borealis said:
No, it's not luck. It's work. Hard work. I've met people who started with nothing and became successful, because they EARNED it. They asked for nothing but the opportunity to excel, and they took full advantage of it.

Communism denies that opportunity; capitalism embraces it. Does everyone succeed as well as men like Trump and Gates? Of course not. The system works for those who are willing to work for it.

So by your logic, everyone who works really hard should become financially "successful". What a load of garbage! Everyone I know also works really hard, yet only a couple have had the luck to turn their work into fortunes.

susanann · Oct 19, 2006

Borealis said:
No, it's not luck. It's work. Hard work. I've met people who started with nothing and became successful, because they EARNED it. They asked for nothing but the opportunity to excel, and they took full advantage of it.

Communism denies that opportunity; capitalism embraces it. Does everyone succeed as well as men like Trump and Gates? Of course not. The system works for those who are willing to work for it.

Bad examples.

1. Actually, it is questionable to say Donald Trump "suceeded". He actually lost the fortune inherited from his father. He has been in and out of bankruptcy more times than any other American, and his businesses, casinos, and enterprises have a history of losing huge amounts of money. I have never seen Trump actually "work" or get up a sweat, but I admit he does have a "talent" for buying a lot of expensive toys by having an ability/connections to be able borrow hundreds of millions of dollars from banks, even while hopelessly in bankruptcy.

2. As far as GAtes: I admit he is shrewed, coniving, and lucky, but little else. He was at the right time and right place, and took/bought someone else's software (Tim Patterson and Gary Kindall) to create/sell it as a "microsoft product", and through fate and a comedy of IBM errors, ended up with a product that became extremely popular and profitable. I think the actual inventors of the microsoft software, as well as his current employees, worked much harder than Bill
Gates ever did.

I dont see where either one of these 2 guys are admirable, or to be looked up to, or to be held up as people to model oneself after. Borrowing huge amounts of money on false promises, and "stealing" someone elses hard labor and selling as your own are not qualities christain kids should be taught to follow - regardless of how much money or riches can be obtained from it.

Alarum · Oct 20, 2006

Capitalism isn't a great system. It is the best we've currently got, however.

Communism has too many internal flaws, and socialism has never been truly codified into one consistant doctorine.

The biggest flaws in capitalism are vulnerability to manipulation from the rich and externalities. Of them, the manipulation seems to be an unavoidable consequence of capitalism, and externalities is fundimentally part of it, requiring socialist-style remedies to make the system actually work.

Borealis · Oct 20, 2006

CCGirl said:
So by your logic, everyone who works really hard should become financially "successful". What a load of garbage! Everyone I know also works really hard, yet only a couple have had the luck to turn their work into fortunes.

Who said anything about a fortune? What would you consider to be financially successful? Own a home, a car or two, a steady income, food on the table, occasional vacations with the family...is that such a chore to accomplish? Even the so-called poor in our capitalist society have a lot of 'things,' and some of them even own their own home. How can that not be considered successful? It's not all about the bank balance.

Capitalism is born of inspiration; communism is born of envy. Communists don't like that other people are more successful than they are, and want to bring them down to their own level. Capitalists want what the other person has, so they work for it.

ACougar · Oct 21, 2006

It is certainly nice to have all those things, however I believe that CCGirl is refering more to power than some degree of wealth. The power and freedom that comes from owning the place where you work, the power and freedom that comes from being a part of community which makes it's own destiny, which charts it's own course. Strange that most people with a nice home and nice cars and half a dozen credit cards can hardly imagine such a world.

I also disagree with you when you say Capitalism was born of Inspiration, it was born of the desire for wealth and success and security and even greed. It is communism that looked at Capitalism and had an inspiration to fix the misery and sorrow caused by capitalism, unfortunatly the cure was worse than the problem it was supposed to fix. Fortunatly the most peoples understand that there is a third path, one which balances the desire to make this a better world with the desire to generate wealth. A blend of Capitalism and Communism which we know today as Socialism.

Borealis said:
Who said anything about a fortune? What would you consider to be financially successful? Own a home, a car or two, a steady income, food on the table, occasional vacations with the family...is that such a chore to accomplish? Even the so-called poor in our capitalist society have a lot of 'things,' and some of them even own their own home. How can that not be considered successful? It's not all about the bank balance.

Capitalism is born of inspiration; communism is born of envy. Communists don't like that other people are more successful than they are, and want to bring them down to their own level. Capitalists want what the other person has, so they work for it.

AlanGurvey · Oct 21, 2006

Borealis said:
Who said anything about a fortune? What would you consider to be financially successful? Own a home, a car or two, a steady income, food on the table, occasional vacations with the family...is that such a chore to accomplish?

For the rest of the world, yes indeed.

Any Leftist 'Radicals' Here?

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