Any Leftist 'Radicals' Here?

Silent Bob · Oct 16, 2006

I used to believe that Communists lived on the moon but as I grow and see more and more around me I find myself to be more and more in agreement with what the founders (Marx, Engels) of Communism talked about.

Of course I am not 100% in agreement and I don't see myself as a radical. I believe in a free market that must be fair. The market should be as free as possible but also regulated so that monopolies and fraud never occurs.

I also stand firmly against the coupling of the rich with politicians and believe that anyone into high public office should be striped of all earnings and wealth prior to taking office. Nothing would be returned after leaving office but politicians should have a pension paid by their contributions before they come to power. Any post-political carreer earnings apart from the pension should also be illegal (no book royalties, no company checks, no nothing).

I have more but you can read them at my site psychoticbstardsparty.com... the churchofenglandparty.com URL was taken. [/Eddie Izzard reference]

Will you vote for me? I don't have much wealth and I am looking forward to that pension.

susanann · Oct 16, 2006

Originally Posted by susanann

I am one of the most leftest radicals here.
I dare you to find anyone more leftest or radical than myself.
I strongly believe and support most of what Thomas Jefferson(the most famous leftest radical in history) believed in and stood for.

oldbetang said:
"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have ... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."
-Thomas Jefferson-

A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
Thomas Jefferson

That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves.
Thomas Jefferson

To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.Thomas Jefferson

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
Thomas Jefferson

Thomas Jefferson could in no way be considered a leftist radical or even a liberal, in its modern context.

..sounds pretty radical, and leftist to me.....Jefferson's ideas are very empowering to the common ordinary people, maximizes liberty to the citizens, severely limits the power and intrusion of the government.......... and definitely at odds and against with what bush and the current republicans are doing.

susanann · Oct 16, 2006

Silent Bob said:
I used to believe that Communists lived on the moon but as I grow and see more and more around me I find myself to be more and more in agreement with what the founders (Marx, Engels) of Communism talked about.

Of course I am not 100% in agreement and I don't see myself as a radical. I believe in a free market that must be fair. The market should be as free as possible but also regulated so that monopolies and fraud never occurs.

If you had visited communist china, communist soviet union, communist cuba, communist poland, communist east germany, communist ukraine, etc. then you would also be very disillusioned against communistic forms of government, perhaps more so.

Communist governemnts dont believe in a free market or liberty of the individuals, but then neither do current repubicans or big businesses.

Borealis · Oct 16, 2006

CCGirl said:
OOppss...

Ummm....the majority of human beings ARE the poor! As an internationalist and someone who cares about the plight of ALL, we must include all peoples of the world. We live in an amazingly prosperous society at the expense of the massive majority of poor on this planet. The massive transfer of wealth, to a small minority, that has/is happening is nauseating. Yes, it would be wonderful if the world could all have running water, education, health care. This is not possible under capitalism such is practiced today. It is very sad that the USA has descended into class warfare between the working class people. This is what we focus on, uniting all workers for the betterment of the workers and society!

Tell me, how much money does the West transfer to the impoverished nations? How much does America spend a year on things like oil, for that matter? America buys enough oil alone to give most of the Middle East a middle-class standard of living. The problem is the people getting that money (the Middle-East rulers) are hoarding it for themselves. How is that America's fault? North America has a social safety net. Saudi Arabia has what, exactly?

America is the most generous nation in world history. Yes, it can afford to be; America has a large portion of the world's money under its control. They've earned it.

The USA hasn't descended into class warfare, at least not as much as some people dream about. There is no revolution, because most poor people in North America recognize that they are so further up the ladder of success than poor people elsewhere that they don't waste time complaining and just try to get further ahead.

Your system is a proven failure; capitalism has produced more prosperity in a short period of time than any other system ever devised. Is it perfect? No, but like democracy, capitalism is the worst economic system devised, except for all the others.

ACougar · Oct 16, 2006

It's important to understand that what we call the first world wouldn't be possible without the third world. At least not as we know it today. Thier two sides of the same coin. Replace agricultural workers making $4 a day with people who insist on getting paid $12 an hour for all that hard work and food prices in this country will go up 50%. Take away the natural resources that come from the 3rd world and we'd have to radicly alter our way of living as well.

Yes corruption plays a major role in keeping people down, but then again so does the U.S. government and our corperate interests. Democraticly elect a government that might choose to Nationalize some U.S. corperate propery, be it oil fields or mines and odds are the U.S and/or it's companies will try to topple the government. That often results in military juntas or other dictatorships which have to resort to an incredable amount of violence against thier people in order to stay in power. Hundreds of thousands alone have been slain because of this sort of unrest in Guatamala, Millions throught Latin America.

Borealis said:
Tell me, how much money does the West transfer to the impoverished nations? How much does America spend a year on things like oil, for that matter? America buys enough oil alone to give most of the Middle East a middle-class standard of living. The problem is the people getting that money (the Middle-East rulers) are hoarding it for themselves. How is that America's fault? North America has a social safety net. Saudi Arabia has what, exactly?

America is the most generous nation in world history. Yes, it can afford to be; America has a large portion of the world's money under its control. They've earned it.

The USA hasn't descended into class warfare, at least not as much as some people dream about. There is no revolution, because most poor people in North America recognize that they are so further up the ladder of success than poor people elsewhere that they don't waste time complaining and just try to get further ahead.

Your system is a proven failure; capitalism has produced more prosperity in a short period of time than any other system ever devised. Is it perfect? No, but like democracy, capitalism is the worst economic system devised, except for all the others.

Maynard Keenan · Oct 16, 2006

Not a radical leftist here. I hate it, though, that the political discussion has shifted to the point that "left-wing" no longer means radical leftists, socialists, some of the views expressed in this thread, but instead is used to refer to anyone in the middle of liberal beliefs.

CCGirl · Oct 16, 2006

ACougar said:
Surely the objective is to empower all people, to give everyone a voice in their govenment and a middle class life style. Why can't everyone have running water and indoor plumbing, and all the things we in the west consider basic?

Sure, it way require some engineering... however shouldn't the objective be to create a world wide middle class majority?

That would be ideal, but capitalism will never achieve this!

Gracchus · Oct 16, 2006

I read once, and saw the figures, that for the cost of WWI we could have fed, clothed, housed, and educated everyone in the world at that time.

I estimate that for the cost of the Iraq war we could have provided health care for everyone in the country.

CCGirl · Oct 16, 2006

Gracchus said:
I read once, and saw the figures, that for the cost of WWI we could have fed, clothed, housed, and educated everyone in the world at that time.

I estimate that for the cost of the Iraq war we could have provided health care for everyone in the country.

Very true! But feeding and clothing and providing adequate health care does not make a select few obscenely rich!

ArnautDaniel · Oct 16, 2006

ACougar said:
It's important to understand that what we call the first world wouldn't be possible without the third world. At least not as we know it today. Thier two sides of the same coin. Replace agricultural workers making $4 a day with people who insist on getting paid $12 an hour for all that hard work and food prices in this country will go up 50%. Take away the natural resources that come from the 3rd world and we'd have to radicly alter our way of living as well.

Yes corruption plays a major role in keeping people down, but then again so does the U.S. government and our corperate interests. Democraticly elect a government that might choose to Nationalize some U.S. corperate propery, be it oil fields or mines and odds are the U.S and/or it's companies will try to topple the government. That often results in military juntas or other dictatorships which have to resort to an incredable amount of violence against thier people in order to stay in power. Hundreds of thousands alone have been slain because of this sort of unrest in Guatamala, Millions throught Latin America.

Absolutely right.

The standard of living for the whole world cannot be raised without lowering the standard of living in the first world.

That is to say there are only a finite amount of resources to go around.

Global equity can only mean a much poorer America.

It just isn't politic to say this boldly. Better to pretend the resources of the Earth can be extended arbitrarily.

Or to put things differently:

Americans: You cannot live the way you do unless there is a jackboot at the throat of third world peasants.

Borealis · Oct 16, 2006

CCGirl said:
Very true! But feeding and clothing and providing adequate health care does not make a select few obscenely rich!

Which is why communism doesn't work; it enriches the very select elite few at the expense of the 'common people.' Cuba was the wealthiest nation in the Central America/Carribean region in the mid-1950s. After Castro took over, it became one of the poorest, but you wouldn't know it from Castro's personal life, would you?

ArnautDaniel · Oct 16, 2006

Borealis said:
Which is why communism doesn't work; it enriches the very select elite few at the expense of the 'common people.' Cuba was the wealthiest nation in the Central America/Carribean region in the mid-1950s. After Castro took over, it became one of the poorest, but you wouldn't know it from Castro's personal life, would you?

You make it sound like the fall of the Cuban economy can be attributed entirely to Castro's policies, rather than say...the US embargo on Cuba, and US pressure on other countries not to trade with Cuba.

It is hard to make an economy go on an island with limited resources when a bully keeps you from trading with your neighbors.

français · Oct 16, 2006

CC Girl, if Fidel Castro is loved so much, then why is it that when he got sick hundreds, if not thousands of cuban americans were out rejoicing, having signs saying "it's time for a free cuba" and all of that?

i ama socialist. but not communist. And I think the socialist way is like the American, civilized version of communism, only we don't believe in killing others, we believe in human rights, and so forth. unlike castro. i have a cuban friend whos grandfather protested castro and was killed.

Defensor Fidei · Oct 16, 2006

Yes corruption plays a major role in keeping people down, but then again so does the U.S. government and our corperate interests. Democraticly elect a government that might choose to Nationalize some U.S. corperate propery, be it oil fields or mines and odds are the U.S and/or it's companies will try to topple the government.

This is why there will never be change for the better in America without popular revolution. Capitalist terrorists have held the people hostage through the U.S. government for decades. A government which represents the people is incompatible with capitalism, and the corporate elites know this.

kjf512 said:
CC Girl, if Fidel Castro is loved so much, then why is it that when he got sick hundreds, if not thousands of cuban americans were out rejoicing, having signs saying "it's time for a free cuba" and all of that?

I don't know the exact details of the situation you describe but the likely answer you'd get from her is that many of the early Cubans who escaped to the U.S. were upper-class wealthy landowners (who just happened to have had their property seized by Castro). Of course, the middle class suffered from these actions too...

i ama socialist. but not communist. And I think the socialist way is like the American, civilized version of communism, only we don't believe in killing others, we believe in human rights, and so forth. unlike castro. i have a cuban friend whos grandfather protested castro and was killed.

Why didn't you just say you support "the American, civilized version of communism" since you obviously don't know what communism or socialism actually is or the difference between them anyway...?

oldbetang · Oct 16, 2006

susanann said:
Originally Posted by susanann

I am one of the most leftest radicals here.
I dare you to find anyone more leftest or radical than myself.
I strongly believe and support most of what Thomas Jefferson(the most famous leftest radical in history) believed in and stood for.

..sounds pretty radical, and leftist to me.....Jefferson's ideas are very empowering to the common ordinary people, maximizes liberty to the citizens, severely limits the power and intrusion of the government.......... and definitely at odds and against with what bush and the current republicans are doing.

Radical perhaps, but certainly not leftist. Not unless you consider libertarianism to be leftist idealogy.

CCGirl · Oct 16, 2006

kjf512 said:
CC Girl, if Fidel Castro is loved so much, then why is it that when he got sick hundreds, if not thousands of cuban americans were out rejoicing, having signs saying "it's time for a free cuba" and all of that?

i ama socialist. but not communist. And I think the socialist way is like the American, civilized version of communism, only we don't believe in killing others, we believe in human rights, and so forth. unlike castro. i have a cuban friend whos grandfather protested castro and was killed.

Notice in your post it says "Cuban Americans", you did not see any rejoicing anywhere else in the world!

Little analogies how little water. Provide proof of Castro killing the people! Your understanding of socialism is a narrow scope. Socialism is the first step toward communism!

CCGirl · Oct 16, 2006

Borealis said:
Which is why communism doesn't work; it enriches the very select elite few at the expense of the 'common people.'

No, that is capitalism. With communism, ALL people are free and the necessities of life provided. Capitalism, as evidenced by the few rich elite, hoards the capital and the workers are left to fend for themselves.

Cuba was the wealthiest nation in the Central America/Carribean region in the mid-1950s. After Castro took over, it became one of the poorest, but you wouldn't know it from Castro's personal life, would you?

Gee, the wealthiest? That was the few elite under capitalism and unbridled corruption. The people lived in desperate poverty until Castro freed them and gave the people back their property, dignity and resources. The may be poor, compared to USA/Canada/Europe, but Cuba is MUCH more wealthy as a whole than most other Central American or Caribbean nation that practices capitalism! ie: Mexico, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Belize, etc.

Please provide any examples where Castro is living better than the average Cuban. If he is hoarding wealth in some far off country, is he saving it for when he is old?

susanann · Oct 16, 2006

Originally Posted by susanann

Originally Posted by susanann

I am one of the most leftest radicals here.
I dare you to find anyone more leftest or radical than myself.
I strongly believe and support most of what Thomas Jefferson(the most famous leftest radical in history) believed in and stood for.

..sounds pretty radical, and leftist to me.....Jefferson's ideas are very empowering to the common ordinary people, maximizes liberty to the citizens, severely limits the power and intrusion of the government.......... and definitely at odds and against with what bush and the current republicans are doing.

oldbetang said:
Radical perhaps, but certainly not leftist.

Well, Jeffersonian policies are certainly not middle of the road. His policies are not at all what the republican right wants and is doing. Not right. NOt middle.

Therefore, Jefferson of course was a leftist and wanted to empower "the common ordinary people".

Ryder · Oct 16, 2006

For communism to work, without it descending into 'practical/observable' communism a la the soviets, everybody has to honestly go for it. Everybody has to share the resources. Everybody has to put away greed and many like things.

Obviously, the Achilles heel of communism is simply human nature. When does everybody on earth, or even one country, get together to share, ever?! ROFL!

Capitalism does a better job of dealing with human nature, if you work hard you are rewarded, if you're lazy you starve. Does it always work fairly? No, but it's better than not. Concerned about the poor? Work hard to succeed and give to them of yours then. It'd be more efficient than the government giving anyways.

What does communism provide for incentives? Work hard and you'll make the same, work poorly and you'll make the same. Watch people and tell me that's gonna get everyone motivated to do a good job...

People won't play fair, they will abuse the 'sharing happy feeling' communism and either slack off or start building empires any way they can, *cough* Stalin. Stalin didn't 'go for it', what makes anyone think the next try at communism will take place in the absence of any like people? Sure, you might nail the stupid ones with state police, but there are craftier ones than you or I in this world, and soon enough they'll find a way to ruin utopia.

Capitalism is a system designed to better deal with evil men, real men.

CCGirl · Oct 16, 2006

Ryder said:
For communism to work, without it descending into 'practical/observable' communism a la the soviets, everybody has to honestly go for it. Everybody has to share the resources. Everybody has to put away greed and many like things.

Obviously, the Achilles heel of communism is simply human nature. When does everybody on earth, or even one country, get together to share, ever?! ROFL!

Capitalism does a better job of dealing with human nature, if you work hard you are rewarded, if you're lazy you starve. Does it always work fairly? No, but it's better than not. Concerned about the poor? Work hard to succeed and give to them of yours then. It'd be more efficient than the government giving anyways.

What does communism provide for incentives? Work hard and you'll make the same, work poorly and you'll make the same. Watch people and tell me that's gonna get everyone motivated to do a good job...

People won't play fair, they will abuse the 'sharing happy feeling' communism and either slack off or start building empires any way they can, *cough* Stalin. Stalin didn't 'go for it', what makes anyone think the next try at communism will take place in the absence of any like people? Sure, you might nail the stupid ones with state police, but there are craftier ones than you or I in this world, and soon enough they'll find a way to ruin utopia.

Capitalism is a system designed to better deal with evil men, real men.

Interesting. However, there is absolutely no scientific proof that greed is part of "human nature"!

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