Antioch

benedictaoo said:

It's the non Catholics, like the Orthodox and various Protestants who like to use terms like "Roman Church" and "See of Rome" because it makes a distinction that it's not the universal Catholic Church, just the "Roman Church". Catholics have no business using those terms. It's the Catholic Church... it's the Holy See and it's the Latin Rite. It's not "RC", "RCC", "Roman Church", "church of Rome", "see of Rome". Those speak about a church that is not the Catholic Church.

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Agreed, but we have to be more discerning and take into consideration the context and intent of the person using the expression before we correct them.

It seems unwise to resolve to die on every hill.

Anoetos said:

It seems unwise to resolve to die on every hill.

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Maybe, but don't you know? "error creeps in 'on little cat's feet' " She was just pointing out the proper name. That way, there will be less likelihood of needing to "resolve to die on every hill" since everyone will be on "the same page".

AMDG said:

Maybe, but don't you know? "error creeps in 'on little cat's feet' " She was just pointing out the proper name. That way, there will be less likelihood of needing to "resolve to die on every hill" since everyone will be on "the same page".

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Well, according to Sandburg it's the fog that creeps in on little cats feet.

Much of the slippery slope paranoia prevalent among Christians is a phenomenon completely defiant of either reason or experience.

My point was that her corrections would have made no sense in the context of Keenan's question and would in fact have made either nonsense or a bizarre polemical issue of his intent.

benedictaoo said:

I'm more apt to think it's all politics. It was then and still is today, on both sides, not just one side.

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While I don't mean to debate you, I think this tends to minimilize the real differances that exist between us. It makes it sound like it is more pride and ego that divides us, rather than true theological issues.

I have tremendous respect for the Catholic Church, and agree that the Catholic and Orthodox Churches share many similar beliefs, but they are not all the same.

While I do pray for reunion, it's important to acknowledge and respect one another for our differances as well as our similarities.

HandmaidenOfGod said:

While I don't mean to debate you, I think this tends to minimilize the real differances that exist between us. It makes it sound like it is more pride and ego that divides us, rather than true theological issues.

I have tremendous respect for the Catholic Church, and agree that the Catholic and Orthodox Churches share many similar beliefs, but they are not all the same.

While I do pray for reunion, it's important to acknowledge and respect one another for our differances as well as our similarities.

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i think it is mostly pride and ego that seperate us, there are theological differances, but they are blown way out of porportion

I did not mean to offend anyone. Like Anoetos said, it was context. I wasn't questioning the dominion of the Catholic Church; I was simply referring to it with its scholarly name. Rest assured I am referring to the same Latin Rite Benedictaoo.
I will henceforth refer to it as the Latin Rite, or catholic Church, so as not to willfully undermine its sovereignty.

No you will not commonly find the "See of Rome" in many Google searches. The terminology is used in an academic context.

Once again, no offence was intended.

benedictaoo said:

google "see of Rome" and see what you get... you'll get the top 10 places to see when in Rome and you'll get the link to web site of the Holy See.

It's the non Catholics, like the Orthodox and various Protestants who like to use terms like "Roman Church" and "See of Rome" because it makes a distinction that it's not the universal Catholic Church, just the "Roman Church". Catholics have no business using those terms. It's the Catholic Church... it's the Holy See and it's the Latin Rite. It's not "RC", "RCC", "Roman Church", "church of Rome", "see of Rome". Those speak about a church that is not the Catholic Church.

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Chill.

The Holy See has numerous names, namely: The Apostolic See, the Holy See, the Roman Church [when referring the locale of specific bishopric of Rome itself], the See of Rome....And the term "Holy Roman Church" has been used in times past in reference to the entire "Holy Catholic Church" as due to the See of Rome being preeminent and the Roman Pontiff being the Chief Patriarch of the Holy Catholic Church.

Well I tell you what, if you're a Roman Catholic out on vacation somewhere, and you plan to attend Mass, you better be sure that the parish you're attending states that it is a "Roman Catholic Church," otherwise you could be attending something other.

The title "Roman Catholic" identifies the reality of who we are.

You can play semantic games you want, but every parish in my dioceses, has a sign out front stating that it is a "Roman Catholic" Parish.

Jim

Thanks all for clarifying stuff. Basically, I think it is good that we do share with people the proper terminalogy of the Magisterium name... the Holy See... etc.

I'm glad that Benedicta clarified it because it's good to know.

Thanks keenan for starting this thread. It's interesting.

God bless

Thanks D'ann, I find it interesting too!

JimR-OCDS said:

Well I tell you what, if you're a Roman Catholic out on vacation somewhere, and you plan to attend Mass, you better be sure that the parish you're attending states that it is a "Roman Catholic Church," otherwise you could be attending something other.

The title "Roman Catholic" identifies the reality of who we are.

You can play semantic games you want, but every parish in my dioceses, has a sign out front stating that it is a "Roman Catholic" Parish.

Jim

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Well let me tell you Jim, you are right but you know and I both know, it's properly called the Latin rite and "Roman" was a name that unfortunately just stuck, that was created by church of England specifically to create a distinction between King Henry's Church of England and the Catholic Church that THEY then began to call," Roman" Church because of King Henry's dissent.

In reality, we all know there is no such thing as multiple Catholic Churches. There is but ONE and we know it because it's true head is St. Peter's successor who just so happens to be in Rome.

The only way you can be a Roman Catholic, is if you are a Catholic who's from Rome.

We could henceforth refer to it as the "international Catholic Church of the Latin Rite"?

Well... international wouldn't work, because we all are Catholic... and each country doesn't consider themselves "international".

It's easier to keep to the basics... we are part of the Catholic Church. There is really only one Catholic Church. There might be 24 or so different rites... but all of those rites belong to the one Catholic Church whose headquarters happens to be in Rome...

D'Ann said:

all of those rites belong to the one Catholic Church whose headquarters happens to be in Rome...

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benedictaoo said:

The only way you can be a Roman Catholic, is if you are a Catholic who's from Rome.

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Then again...Rome, with some frequency does refer to itself as the RCC in various church documents to include...joint declarations with other churches and in a variety of church documents to include humani generis

Tonks said:

Then again...Rome, with some frequency does refer to itself as the RCC in various church documents to include...joint declarations with other churches and in a variety of church documents to include humani generis

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okay...

It all depends on what you mean when you use the term. You and I both know non Catholics use it to make a point.

benedictaoo said:

okay...

It all depends on what you mean when you use the term. You and I both know non Catholics use it to make a point.

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Yes...but I also think that the concern is somewhat overblown...since this really seems to be a US-centric thing. Most other countries (on the outside of the church) usually just says "catholic church" etc. Here everything is labeled "Roman Catholic..." maybe a bit of difference without distinction. I know it didn't matter when I was living in MA (and now that I'm in DC)...though I suspect that it is something more of a pejorative in the more anti-Catholic areas of the country.

Tonks said:

though I suspect that it is something more of a pejorative in the more anti-Catholic areas of the country.

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You've got that right! However, it must be noted that not all anti-Catholics are from the southern states. And believe me, anti-Catholics do use the word in a perjoratve sense. (Sometimes I think that they actually spit the word out. ) Trouble is, those same anti-Catholics carefully teach others their hate talk and so there are layers and layers of misunderstandings when some brave soul actually tries to find out what the Catholic Church is really about. (Like the fog, error creeps in on "little cat's feet --oh wait, error is a type of fog.)

Just some info on how the early Church viewed Rome (but remember it is special because of Peter, not because of the place.)

"With that church [of Rome], because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition"
(Irenaeus)

"You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head—that is why he is also called Cephas [‘Rock’]—of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).
(Optatus)

"Likewise it is decreed: . . . [W]e have considered that it ought to be announced that although all the Catholic churches spread abroad through the world comprise one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it.

"In addition to this, there is also the companionship of the vessel of election, the most blessed apostle Paul, who contended and was crowned with a glorious death along with Peter in the city of Rome in the time of Caesar Nero. . . . They equally consecrated the above-mentioned holy Roman Church to Christ the Lord; and by their own presence and by their venerable triumph they set it at the forefront over the others of all the cities of the whole world.

"The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it. The second see, however, is that at Alexandria, consecrated in behalf of blessed Peter by Mark, his disciple and an evangelist, who was sent to Egypt by the apostle Peter, where he preached the word of truth and finished his glorious martyrdom. The third honorable see, indeed, is that at Antioch, which belonged to the most blessed apostle Peter, where first he dwelt before he came to Rome and where the name Christians was first applied, as to a new people" (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]).

"f any bishop loses the judgment in some case [decided by his fellow bishops] and still believes that he has not a bad but a good case, in order that the case may be judged anew . . . let us honor the memory of the apostle Peter by having those who have given the judgment write to Julius, bishop of Rome, so that if it seem proper he may himself send arbiters and the judgment may be made again by the bishops of a neighboring province" (Canon 3 [A.D. 342]).

"[T]hey [the Novatian heretics] have not the succession of Peter, who hold not the chair of Peter, which they rend by wicked schism; and this, too, they do, wickedly denying that sins can be forgiven [by the sacrament of confession] even in the Church, whereas it was said to Peter: ‘I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth shall be loosed also in heaven’[Matt. 16:19]" (Penance 1:7:33 [A.D. 388]).
(Ambrose of Milan)

"Philip the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said: ‘There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed pope Celestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place, and us he sent to supply his place in this holy synod’" (Acts of the Council, session 3 [A.D. 431]).

"We exhort you in every respect, honorable brother, to heed obediently what has been written by the most blessed pope of the city of Rome, for blessed Peter, who lives and presides in his own see, provides the truth of faith to those who seek it. For we, by reason of our pursuit of peace and faith, cannot try cases on the faith without the consent of the bishop of Rome" (Letters 25:2 [A.D. 449]).
(Peter Chrysologus)

Following the above...it was often common practice for the churches which made up the Pentarchy to be referred to by their patriarchal see...the Roman Church, the Antiochian Church etc. The Orthodox, to a large degree still follow this practice. The Eastern rites...are more geographically named / rite names...or named after the founding patriarch (Maronite).

The 28 years that I was rcc I had no problem being referred to as "Roman Catholic"...mainly because I really didn't care what the protestants thought...