• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Anti-Trump judges sparked a legal crisis The new administration has the Founders on its side

Vambram

Born-again Christian; Constitutional conservative
Christian Forums Staff
Moderator Trainee
Site Supporter
Dec 3, 2006
7,499
5,440
60
Saint James, Missouri
✟329,850.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
JD Vance caused a firestorm on Sunday when he posted on X, formerly Twitter: “If a judge tried to tell a general how to conduct a military operation, that would be illegal. If a judge tried to command the attorney general in how to use her discretion as a prosecutor, that’s also illegal. Judges aren’t allowed to control the executive’s legitimate power." The vice president’s remarks came in response to the growing list of lower-court judges who have attempted to halt the new administration’s agenda with a slew of injunctions. They have directed Team Trump to release federal grants to nonprofits that the administration has frozen for auditing, for example, and blocked the administration from applying its interpretation of the 14th Amendment, according to which children born to illegal immigrants aren’t automatically entitled to US citizenship. Vance hit back at the judges for trying to restrict the president in his own sphere and overriding his decisions as to how best to carry out the law (the execute in the “executive branch”). As the Harvard law professor Adrian Vermeule put it an X post, reshared by Vance, “judicial interference with legitimate acts of state, especially the internal functioning of a co-equal branch, is a violation of the separation of powers”.

But the judges’ actions raise another vexing constitutional question: can a lower court with narrow local jurisdiction render so-called nationwide injunctions that purport to bind every American citizen? By seemingly refusing to comply, the Trump administration is effectively answering: no. In doing so, according to The New York Times, the Trumpians have triggered an unprecedented “constitutional crisis”. In recent years, as legal progressives have sought to limit presidential power when it’s held by the other side, it’s become a sort of truism that a lower court in Hawaii or, say, New Hampshire can put a stop to a federal policy covering the whole nation.

In fact, the argument isn’t obvious at all, and there is good reason to believe that America’s Founding Fathers would have been baffled by such gross assertions of judicial hegemony. Start with the constitutional text. The first clause of Article III of the Constitution reads: “The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish.” Read that carefully once more. This so-called vesting clause has at least two notable elements.

First, the only court that shall be established is the US Supreme Court. All other lower courts exist solely at the discretion of Congress, as they have since the Judiciary Act of 1789 — one of the first statutes the First Congress passed. But something created by statute can be taken away by statute. The Federalist’s Sean Davis might have appeared to be trolling when he noted on X that “Congress would be well within its right to just eliminate” any lower courts. In fact, Davis was restating a basic fact about America’s constitutional structure. That precarious state of the lower courts should already tell us something about their authority to neuter executive-branch policy for the whole country.

Second, and more relevant, is what the “judicial Power” means as it is used in Article III of the Constitution. As the University of Chicago Law School professor Will Baude argued in a highly influential 2008 law-review article, “the judicial power is the power to issue binding judgments and to settle legal disputes within the court’s jurisdiction”.

The deepest question raised by this is the following: what is a federal court’s legitimate jurisdiction when it comes to issuing injunctions — a form of “equitable remedy” in legalese, meaning the court tells one party to perform some act (rather than award damages). In this case, for example, it’s courts ordering the executive branch that it has to automatically grant US citizenship to children born to unlawful migrants.
The answer is simple: when it comes to this kind of remedy, only the named parties to a particular lawsuit are bound by the judgment. So to follow our example: a lower court can only order the federal government to treat as an automatic citizen a specific infant born on US soil to an illegal mother from Honduras. Call him Baby Doe. But a lower court lacks the authority to force the executive branch to grant automatic citizenship to Baby Doe and all other similarly situated children nationwide.

“Nationwide injunctions applying to all people across a vast continental nation have no basis in the Anglo-American legal tradition.”
As then-Stanford law professor Jonathan Mitchell argued in a 2018 law-review article, an “injunction is nothing more than a judicially imposed non-enforcement policy” that “forbids the named defendants to enforce the statute” — or executive order — “while the court’s order remains in place.” There is no broader “writ of erasure” that permits a lower court to simply “strike down” a statute or an executive order.
Nationwide injunctions applying to all people across a vast continental nation have no basis in the Anglo-American legal tradition. Rather, the proper scope of a federal court’s power to issue such remedies is restricted to “the defendant’s conduct only with respect to the plaintiff”, as Samuel L. Bray, the Notre Dame legal scholar, argued in a 2017 law-review article

Sceptics of nationwide injunctions aren’t limited to the legal academy. They include Justice Clarence Thomas of the Supreme Court. As Thomas explained in his 2018 concurring opinion in the landmark Trump v. Hawaii case, historically, “American courts of equity did not provide relief beyond the parties to the case”, because “for most of our history, courts understood judicial power as fundamentally the power to render judgments in individual cases”. Presciently, Thomas concluded his opinion by warning: “If federal courts continue to issue them, this Court is dutybound to adjudicate their authority to do so”.

That day has not yet come, but it might soon enough, as the clash between the second Trump administration and legal progressives reaches a crescendo.



Meanwhile, talk of the administration ushering tyranny by defying nationwide injunctions is overblown, to put it generously. Throughout US history, presidents have contested the scope and the binding nature of the “judicial Power”. As the Yale scholar professor Keith Whittington laid out in his 2009 book, Political Foundations of Judicial Supremacy, the debate over who exactly has the last word when it comes to interpreting and enforcing the Constitution goes back to the beginnings of the republic.
 

Vambram

Born-again Christian; Constitutional conservative
Christian Forums Staff
Moderator Trainee
Site Supporter
Dec 3, 2006
7,499
5,440
60
Saint James, Missouri
✟329,850.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Thomas Jefferson, in a 1804 letter to Abigail Adams, asserted that to give “to the judges the right to decide what laws are constitutional, and what not, not only for themselves in their own sphere of action, but for the legislature and executive also, in their spheres, would make the judiciary a despotic branch”.

Jefferson’s ideological arch-rival, Alexander Hamilton, agreed with him on this count. It was Hamilton, after all, who famously argued in The Federalist No. 78 that the judiciary is the “least dangerous” branch because it has “neither FORCE nor WILL, but merely judgment; and must ultimately depend upon the aid of the executive arm even for the efficacy of its judgments”.

President Andrew Jackson took that Hamiltonian sentiment to its logical conclusion when, in 1832, he responded defiantly to Chief Justice John Marshall’s ruling in an Indian-removal case: “The decision of the Supreme Court has fell still born, and they find that it cannot coerce Georgia to yield to its mandate.” (Jackson is widely quoted as saying, “John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it”, but his actual precise quip was similar enough.)

Yet no figure in the American tradition embodied the rejection of judicial supremacy quite like Abraham Lincoln. His 1858 Senate debates with Stephen Douglas focused, more than anything else, on the scope of the Supreme Court’s decision in Dred Scott v. Sandford, in which the high court held that black people weren’t citizens under the federal Constitution. Lincoln argued that the decision should be respected when it came to the named litigants to the suit, the slave Dred Scott and his “owners”, but that it shouldn’t be extended a millimetre further.

Three years later, in his First Inaugural Address as president, Lincoln warned that “the candid citizen must confess that if the policy of the Government upon vital questions affecting the whole people is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court, the instant they are made in ordinary litigation between parties in personal actions, the people will have ceased to be their own rulers”.

JD Vance, in short, is in good company, with Jefferson, Hamilton, and Lincoln on his side. There is no such thing as a legitimate “nationwide injunction”. And the notion that the judiciary is the sole legitimate final arbiter of constitutional questions, including those having to do with the separation of powers, is also belied by US history. Perhaps the Trump administration will follow through on Vance’s sentiment — the birthright citizenship litigation seems as good an example as any. Or perhaps the lower-court #Resistance will first stand down or get put in its place by the Supreme Court.
 
Upvote 0

Fantine

Dona Quixote
Site Supporter
Jun 11, 2005
41,021
16,233
Fort Smith
✟1,377,301.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
How revisionist. It's not up to you, me, or especially the Federalist Society to determine how the Constitution is interpreted.
It's up to the Supreme Court, and my guess is that at least five of them are 110% sure that the founding fathers never intended to eviscerate the Constitution and our checks and balances to please the unelected, unsworn-in, un-confirmed richest man in the world.
 
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
May 22, 2015
27,278
8,688
65
✟419,172.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
At most it appears that the courts have totally over stepped their bounds. Setting up blanket orders such as, "you have to.release all the money," is a total violation of their authority. What they shoild be doing is dealing with individual cases. The president is not spending money on... The plaintiffs should be bringing the matter to the court and providing direct evidence on why the money should be spent on ....

That would.make total.sense. and in the mean time they should not rule against Trump until they've heard the case. It can stay in limbo until then becauae they haven't hear the facts of the case.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Vambram
Upvote 0

Vambram

Born-again Christian; Constitutional conservative
Christian Forums Staff
Moderator Trainee
Site Supporter
Dec 3, 2006
7,499
5,440
60
Saint James, Missouri
✟329,850.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
How revisionist. It's not up to you, me, or especially the Federalist Society to determine how the Constitution is interpreted.
It's up to the Supreme Court, and my guess is that at least five of them are 110% sure that the founding fathers never intended to eviscerate the Constitution and our checks and balances to please the unelected, unsworn-in, un-confirmed richest man in the world.
Did you note that the author of the article reference and used quotes from President Thomas Jefferson, Alexander Hamilton, President Jackson, and President Lincoln?
Those men were not members of the Federalist Society.

Also, President Trump and all of the millions upon millions upon millions of Americans who voted for Trump are a far stronger force & more important force for change than Elon Musk.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Palmfever
Upvote 0

Bradskii

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Aug 19, 2018
22,740
15,371
72
Bondi
✟360,941.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
...the debate over who exactly has the last word when it comes to interpreting and enforcing the Constitution...
That would be the Supreme Court.

The rest of the post could have been shortened to 'It's not fair!' Foot stamping optional.
 
Upvote 0

Vambram

Born-again Christian; Constitutional conservative
Christian Forums Staff
Moderator Trainee
Site Supporter
Dec 3, 2006
7,499
5,440
60
Saint James, Missouri
✟329,850.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The rest of the post could have been shortened to 'It's not fair!' Foot stamping optional.
Is that how you would also respond to objections raised by President Jefferson, Alexander Hamilton, President Lincoln and President Jackson?

In his First Inaugural Address as president, Lincoln warned that “the candid citizen must confess that if the policy of the Government upon vital questions affecting the whole people is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court, the instant they are made in ordinary litigation between parties in personal actions, the people will have ceased to be their own rulers”.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Palmfever
Upvote 0

Bradskii

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Aug 19, 2018
22,740
15,371
72
Bondi
✟360,941.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Is that how you would also respond to objections raised by President Jefferson, Alexander Hamilton, President Lincoln and President Jackson?
Darn right I would. We've got a constitution down here as well. We don't get as excited about it as you guys seem to be with yours. But it nevertheless is the basis of the political structure that we have. Not everyone agrees with decisions made based on it, but that's the deal. And our Supreme Court is termed the High Court. Their decisions are likewise final, whether one agrees with them or not.

That should indicate the strength of your system. Strongly disagreeing with an SC decision but standing up in support of the process itself. That you have so many people questioning that process does not bode well for your country. Should the executive dictate policy (and I'm using that word intentionally) by ignoring due process and specifically ignoring SC decisions then I really don't think that you'll be prepared for what is likely to happen. Jan 6 will look like an afternoon picnic in comparison.
 
Upvote 0

Vambram

Born-again Christian; Constitutional conservative
Christian Forums Staff
Moderator Trainee
Site Supporter
Dec 3, 2006
7,499
5,440
60
Saint James, Missouri
✟329,850.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Darn right I would. We've got a constitution down here as well. We don't get as excited about it as you guys seem to be with yours. But it nevertheless is the basis of the political structure that we have. Not everyone agrees with decisions made based on it, but that's the deal. And our Supreme Court is termed the High Court. Their decisions are likewise final, whether one agrees with them or not.

That should indicate the strength of your system. Strongly disagreeing with an SC decision but standing up in support of the process itself. That you have so many people questioning that process does not bode well for your country. Should the executive dictate policy (and I'm using that word intentionally) by ignoring due process and specifically ignoring SC decisions then I really don't think that you'll be prepared for what is likely to happen. Jan 6 will look like an afternoon picnic in comparison.
Maybe you just ain't seeing this from an American point of view. We elect people to represent us in the legislature branches and also in the executive branch. They are elected in our constitutional republic via a democratic process to do the will of the people. However, when the will of the elected officials of the Executive branch OR the Legislative branch is BLOCKED OR SLOWED DOWN by one or two or three federal judges in a minor court, then that is when we have a tyranny of the judicial branch attempting to become more powerful than either the Legislative Branch and the Executive Branch of our federal government.
I am standing in agreement with President Lincoln, President Jefferson, President Jackson, and Alexander Hamilton.
 
Upvote 0

Bradskii

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Aug 19, 2018
22,740
15,371
72
Bondi
✟360,941.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
However, when the will of the elected officials of the Executive branch OR the Legislative branch is BLOCKED OR SLOWED DOWN by one or two or three federal judges in a minor court...
...(1) because of the law and/or the constitution, then (2) the decision stands. The only recourse is to (3) appeal to a higher court.

There are only three points stated there. Which one don't you understand?
 
  • Informative
Reactions: KCfromNC
Upvote 0

Vambram

Born-again Christian; Constitutional conservative
Christian Forums Staff
Moderator Trainee
Site Supporter
Dec 3, 2006
7,499
5,440
60
Saint James, Missouri
✟329,850.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
...(1) because of the law and/or the constitution, then (2) the decision stands. The only recourse is to (3) appeal to a higher court.

There are only three points stated there. Which one don't you understand?
I understand all of your points. And all of your points that we have seen in recent history in the USA, and perhaps in other nations as well, does lead to a tyranny of the judicial branch of lower federal judges ((NOT the SCOTUS)) an UNELECTED BRANCH that does NOT represent the will of the people. Lower court federal judges have been engaging in judicial activism for years and years in my country. That is NOT how it is supposed to be according to the US Constitution and my nation's laws.
 
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

One nation indivisible
Mar 11, 2017
20,898
15,784
55
USA
✟398,059.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Maybe you just ain't seeing this from an American point of view. We elect people to represent us in the legislature branches and also in the executive branch. They are elected in our constitutional republic via a democratic process to do the will of the people. However, when the will of the elected officials of the Executive branch OR the Legislative branch is BLOCKED OR SLOWED DOWN by one or two or three federal judges in a minor court, then that is when we have a tyranny of the judicial branch attempting to become more powerful than either the Legislative Branch and the Executive Branch of our federal government.
I am standing in agreement with President Lincoln, President Jefferson, President Jackson, and Alexander Hamilton.
US District court are not "minor courts". They are trial courts and lawsuits have been filed. It is those judges that will make all rulings on those cases. Other courts can only handle appeals *after* a decision or ruling has been made. Judges rule on whether one party has violated the law or rights or contracts with the other party in civil cases.
 
Upvote 0

Fantine

Dona Quixote
Site Supporter
Jun 11, 2005
41,021
16,233
Fort Smith
✟1,377,301.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
You didn't use a credible source. First I went to the website where headline after headline was blatantly "fake news."

Then I looked at Wikipedia. Facebook has censured them for publishing fake news. So could anyone with a computer take a book from one of the founding fathers and present a sentence or two taken out of context? Sure. And that's probably what unherd.com did.

 
  • Informative
Reactions: KCfromNC
Upvote 0

Vambram

Born-again Christian; Constitutional conservative
Christian Forums Staff
Moderator Trainee
Site Supporter
Dec 3, 2006
7,499
5,440
60
Saint James, Missouri
✟329,850.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You didn't use a credible source. First I went to the website where headline after headline was blatantly "fake news."

Then I looked at Wikipedia. Facebook has censured them for publishing fake news. So could anyone with a computer take a book from one of the founding fathers and present a sentence or two taken out of context? Sure. And that's probably what unherd.com did.

Josh Hammer is a very credible analyst, reporter, and commentator. He wrote that article on Unherd.com Josh Hammer also has written many, many articles for Newsweek. BUT, I predict that my rebuttal to your post will not change your mind.
 
Upvote 0

Bradskii

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Aug 19, 2018
22,740
15,371
72
Bondi
✟360,941.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I understand all of your points. And all of your points that we have seen in recent history in the USA, and perhaps in other nations as well, does lead to a tyranny of the judicial branch of lower federal judges ((NOT the SCOTUS)) an UNELECTED BRANCH that does NOT represent the will of the people. Lower court federal judges have been engaging in judicial activism for years and years in my country. That is NOT how it is supposed to be according to the US Constitution and my nation's laws.
This is nothing more than 'courts have been making decisions with which I don't agree'. And then, risibly, calling it 'judicial activism'. Is this the new phrase that we're going to be subjected to for the next 4 years?

Check out this comment you made: 'an unelected branch that does NOT represent the will of the people.' You're darn right they don't represent the will of the people. That's not their job. Their job is to decide matters of law. NOT to decide on what the people want. It's the very reason they are unelected, for heaven's sake. Can you possibly imagine if the judiciary was an elected body like congress? There could, in fact would be times when one party ran all branches of the government. Is that really what you'd want to see?

When someone says something that you don't like then I'd expect you to say that you disagree, but that you support their right to say it. Similarly, if decisions by the courts are not one with which you agree then now is the time to say that although you disagree, you fully support the right of the courts to make those decisions. Else...what? Are you seriously suggesting that they should be elected? Are you seriously suggesting that the executive can ignore court rulings? Apart from whingeing about Trump being prevented from doing what he wants to do, and have to appeal the verdicts, I have no idea exactly what you do want.

But I do know what you, and others are doing. And that is to chip away at the separation of powers and get to a position where the executive is responsible to no-one. As I said, it's a direction that you really don't want to consider. Do not go there.
 
Upvote 0

Vambram

Born-again Christian; Constitutional conservative
Christian Forums Staff
Moderator Trainee
Site Supporter
Dec 3, 2006
7,499
5,440
60
Saint James, Missouri
✟329,850.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
This is nothing more than 'courts have been making decisions with which I don't agree'. And then, risibly, calling it 'judicial activism'. Is this the new phrase that we're going to be subjected to for the next 4 years?

Check out this comment you made: 'an unelected branch that does NOT represent the will of the people.' You're darn right they don't represent the will of the people. That's not their job. Their job is to decide matters of law. NOT to decide on what the people want. It's the very reason they are unelected, for heaven's sake. Can you possibly imagine if the judiciary was an elected body like congress? There could, in fact would be times when one party ran all branches of the government. Is that really what you'd want to see?

When someone says something that you don't like then I'd expect you to say that you disagree, but that you support their right to say it. Similarly, if decisions by the courts are not one with which you agree then now is the time to say that although you disagree, you fully support the right of the courts to make those decisions. Else...what? Are you seriously suggesting that they should be elected? Are you seriously suggesting that the executive can ignore court rulings? Apart from whingeing about Trump being prevented from doing what he wants to do, and have to appeal the verdicts, I have no idea exactly what you do want.

But I do know what you, and others are doing. And that is to chip away at the separation of powers and get to a position where the executive is responsible to no-one. As I said, it's a direction that you really don't want to consider. Do not go there.
I disagree with your analysis and your opinion regarding American constitutional law. Also, I very, very, very strongly disagree with what you think constitutional conservatives like myself want to happen in the last paragraph of your post.
 
Upvote 0

Vambram

Born-again Christian; Constitutional conservative
Christian Forums Staff
Moderator Trainee
Site Supporter
Dec 3, 2006
7,499
5,440
60
Saint James, Missouri
✟329,850.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Those are a lot of words for implementing Gleichschaltung on the judiciary branch of government.
I disagree.
The judiciary branch of the USA federal government should not be more powerful than the other 2 branches.
 
Upvote 0

Nithavela

you're in charge you can do it just get louis
Apr 14, 2007
30,424
22,061
Comb. Pizza Hut and Taco Bell/Jamaica Avenue.
✟571,862.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Single
I disagree.
The judiciary branch of the USA federal government should not be more powerful than the other 2 branches.
It only is when the other two branches are breaking the law, as it should be.

It's not the fault of the judges that the current administration is releasing dubious executive orders by the bushel instead of checking if things work as intended or going through the legislative process like normal administrations.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: KCfromNC
Upvote 0

Vambram

Born-again Christian; Constitutional conservative
Christian Forums Staff
Moderator Trainee
Site Supporter
Dec 3, 2006
7,499
5,440
60
Saint James, Missouri
✟329,850.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
It only is when the other two branches are breaking the law, as it should be.

It's not the fault of the judges that the current administration is releasing dubious executive orders by the bushel instead of checking if things work as intended or going through the legislative process like normal administrations.
However, the executive orders ain't breaking the law.
 
Upvote 0