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He did not want a polygamous relationship or a turbulent household ruled by bickering and strife.
I think this is a fair statement although Sacred Scripture does not state this explicitly. I think it is fair to say that it is implicit in Sacred Scripture that the basis of our salvation is our personal relationship with our blessed Lord.Like I said, salvation is a personal relationship with Jesus. We are saved person by person not church by church.
I think this is a fair statement although Sacred Scripture does not state this explicitly.
My question for you is, what sort of things affect personal relationships?
For example, if a man commits adultery, that would in many cases be enough to sever the personal relationship that he has with his wife.
Do any sins that a man commits sever the personal relationship that he has with our Lord?
I can agree with this to a large extent. Certainly no person is incapable of living his life without sinning, unless God gives him a special grace to do so. And no sin is so great that it cannot be repented of. So in that sense I agree that whether a person repents from his sin and turns back to God is more consequential than the sin itself.I think it's less about someone sinning since we are all sinners and God is well aware of our flaws and temptations and more about what a person does after sinning. Do they repent, do they not care or something else? I think God would be looking at this in any decision of severing a relationship with someone.
[Perhaps Anti-Catholic is too strong a term, but it was a lot shorter than saying, People who seriously disagree with the Catholic Church on Biblical grounds. But I digress.]
Update: As many people have made fair arguments about my challenge, I have thought this through a little more, on how to make this more reasonable (though to be fair, I do have a user who took me up on this, and at least 1 friend who's doing this in real life). The principle reason for why I choose Catholicism isn't just because I think Dave Armstrong's arguments prove the Church as the most Biblical; I see a lot of very Biblical arguments for a lot of contrary views. I see the Church as an authoritative institution. The Bible is complicated; God knows that. He wouldn't leave us on our own, to figure out a notoriously difficult book by ourselves; it makes sense that He would institute some sort of living authority to teach us (with the infallible guidance of the Spirit) the essential moral & theological information about the faith. I intend to make a post about this in more detail in the near future; for now, I would direct anyone with the book (mentioned below) to Appendix 2: The Visible, Hierarchical, Apostolic Church. Thank you for your recommendations on how to refine my challenge, and may God lead us all to the true Church, wherever that may be!)
Update to the Update: Here it is! Please pray for good things to come as a result!Why I Choose Catholic Christianity
A very common argument against Catholicism is the idea that the Catholic Church is unbiblical. A valid concern; however, I truly believe that this idea is a misconception. I've spent quite a bit of time arguing theology here & in real life with my Protestant brothers & sisters, and my Protestant brothers and sisters have spent quite a bit of time arguing theology with me. To date, nobody has changed their mind either way.
This is often due to an understandable lack of thoroughness; the Bible is a very detailed, sometimes complicated, and remarkably long book. A proper understanding of all its implications would take extensive time & effort that many of us just don't have.
So I will direct you to a book written by someone who has put in all that time & effort...an evangelical Protestant, who did a year-long in-depth Bible study to disprove Catholicism.
Long story short...he converted.
The author is Dave Armstrong, and the book is titled A Biblical Defense of Catholicism. It's around 350 of very meticulous Biblical analysis, written to explain how the Catholic Church is the most Biblical Christian Church, and even the only truly Biblical Church.
It's detailed enough that it can be hard to read, especially when Armstrong discusses the original languages used in the Bible. But if you really want to convince me against my Catholic Christian faith, this is my challenge: Read the book (all of it), take careful notes if that's how you do things, find out how the concert got it all wrong, and let me know. Give me a thorough enough explanation for how the Catholic Church isn't Biblically & historically valid, and I promise I will convert. You have to read the book first; I can't defend my faith & explain Scripture as well as Armstrong can, so I direct my apologetics to him (sometimes it's good to let someone more educated do the explaining).
You can find it pretty cheap online (remember to use Amazon Smile if that's your avenue; that gives money to a charity of your choice, with no extra fee to you). And if you don't want to, I understand, it's a lot of reading. But if disproving Catholicism is really what you want to do in this life, then a Catholic Theology major just told you what you need to do to convince him.
May God continue to bless us all!
Well. Thank you for letting everyone know the terms on which you will bless all of us with the privilege of having a discussion with you.Firstly, I'm not going ever ask you to read a 350 page book, so please don't expect me to. Pick one idea and post it. Then we can discuss.
[Perhaps Anti-Catholic is too strong a term, but it was a lot shorter than saying, People who seriously disagree with the Catholic Church on Biblical grounds. But I digress.]
Update: As many people have made fair arguments about my challenge, I have thought this through a little more, on how to make this more reasonable (though to be fair, I do have a user who took me up on this, and at least 1 friend who's doing this in real life). The principle reason for why I choose Catholicism isn't just because I think Dave Armstrong's arguments prove the Church as the most Biblical; I see a lot of very Biblical arguments for a lot of contrary views. I see the Church as an authoritative institution. The Bible is complicated; God knows that. He wouldn't leave us on our own, to figure out a notoriously difficult book by ourselves; it makes sense that He would institute some sort of living authority to teach us (with the infallible guidance of the Spirit) the essential moral & theological information about the faith. I intend to make a post about this in more detail in the near future; for now, I would direct anyone with the book (mentioned below) to Appendix 2: The Visible, Hierarchical, Apostolic Church. Thank you for your recommendations on how to refine my challenge, and may God lead us all to the true Church, wherever that may be!)
Update to the Update: Here it is! Please pray for good things to come as a result!Why I Choose Catholic Christianity
A very common argument against Catholicism is the idea that the Catholic Church is unbiblical. A valid concern; however, I truly believe that this idea is a misconception. I've spent quite a bit of time arguing theology here & in real life with my Protestant brothers & sisters, and my Protestant brothers and sisters have spent quite a bit of time arguing theology with me. To date, nobody has changed their mind either way.
This is often due to an understandable lack of thoroughness; the Bible is a very detailed, sometimes complicated, and remarkably long book. A proper understanding of all its implications would take extensive time & effort that many of us just don't have.
So I will direct you to a book written by someone who has put in all that time & effort...an evangelical Protestant, who did a year-long in-depth Bible study to disprove Catholicism.
Long story short...he converted.
The author is Dave Armstrong, and the book is titled A Biblical Defense of Catholicism. It's around 350 of very meticulous Biblical analysis, written to explain how the Catholic Church is the most Biblical Christian Church, and even the only truly Biblical Church.
It's detailed enough that it can be hard to read, especially when Armstrong discusses the original languages used in the Bible. But if you really want to convince me against my Catholic Christian faith, this is my challenge: Read the book (all of it), take careful notes if that's how you do things, find out how the concert got it all wrong, and let me know. Give me a thorough enough explanation for how the Catholic Church isn't Biblically & historically valid, and I promise I will convert. You have to read the book first; I can't defend my faith & explain Scripture as well as Armstrong can, so I direct my apologetics to him (sometimes it's good to let someone more educated do the explaining).
You can find it pretty cheap online (remember to use Amazon Smile if that's your avenue; that gives money to a charity of your choice, with no extra fee to you). And if you don't want to, I understand, it's a lot of reading. But if disproving Catholicism is really what you want to do in this life, then a Catholic Theology major just told you what you need to do to convince him.
May God continue to bless us all!
Well, that was an interesting thing to read!Oh don't get me wrong I absolutely have a list of grievances against the Catholic Church. I don't even have a problem calling the office of the Pope an affront to God that is ruled by an Antichrist spirit. However I also realize that while the institution of Roman Catholicism is rotten to its very core there are great people who choose to associate with that church due to their own personal convictions. So my comment to you Alex would be if worshipping in your local Catholic church brings you closer to God then keep on attending! Just don't get too deep
Hi many people have made conversions from and into other faiths and that is not a good argument in and of itself. I left the Catholic church when I began to study the scriptures for myself. You have the pope embracing all the other faiths of the world and yet the list of things that will get you anathema is quite long and telling as is the Jesuit oath. Here is a link to the Jesuit oath and tell me again how this is part of the one true church.
Jesuit Extreme Oath of Induction
Yes, I'm open to this; my request is that these questions be taken to the Catholic subforum, or another debate area. This is just for practical reasons; if everybody starts saying everything they disagree with on Catholicism, there will be no way to handle the back-and-forth of every issue at once. This thread is better left for discussions about the book I mentioned, or other general ideas. You will see in the Update to the Update that I have another thread that lays out what needs to be explained for me to change my mind; the post I link is what you should read if you want to understand how to change my mind. Give me a very good answer, and I promise I'm open to whatever your better suggestion may be.So,did you write the op sincerely? I mean,can I ask some questions and make some statements about why I see Catholicism as unbiblical? Are you still open (or were you in the first place?) to changing your mind?
Yes, I'm open to this; my request is that these questions be taken to the Catholic subforum, or another debate area. This is just for practical reasons; if everybody starts saying everything they disagree with on Catholicism, there will be no way to handle the back-and-forth of every issue at once. This thread is better left for discussions about the book I mentioned, or other general ideas. You will see in the Update to the Update that I have another thread that lays out what needs to be explained for me to change my mind; the post I link is what you should read if you want to understand how to change my mind. Give me a very good answer, and I promise I'm open to whatever your better suggestion may be.
May God continue to bless us all!
I don't believe JMT is actually presenting an accurate account of Catholic teaching, so I don't think what you have rejected is Catholicism. Not that I particularly care as I am not Catholic myself.I was raised Roman Catholic--even spent a year with a Franciscan order. I have been a practicing, what I like to call, non-Catholic evangelical of the "Arminian" type.
I believe that all who call on the Name of the Lord shall be saved, whether they be evangelical, Protestant, Anglican, Catholic, Orthodox--whatever...at the time of death.
That said, what comes to mind for me as to why I am not a practicing Catholic is the word "dissonance", my reaction to the Catholic Church’s teaching of the "Mystical Body of Christ". When one approaches this mysticism with Scriptures in-hand, I have concluded that there is such a difference between what the Scriptures teach about God's relationship to the Church and what the Catholic Magisterium teaches, that there is an irreconcilable gulf. I concluded this when once reading an explanation about the Body that was illustrated by John Michael Talbot.
Talbot explained the Body as being comprised of concentric circles of followers. Without, saying as much, it appears that the concept for this is based on Romans 2:11-14.
I can't remember the circle with accuracy, but here's a faint echo of the impact of that: the inner circle, the nucleus, is Roman Catholicism. Then, from that nucleus going outward:
* Denominations considered to be in Communion with the "Holy See"
* Denominations not in Communion, like Protestants and evangelicals (whose celebration of the Eucharist is not deemed valid)
* Judaism and Islam
* Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Zoroastrianism, etc.
* Pantheists
* [and now, post-JMT's explanation, apparently well-meaning Atheists]
I understood JMT's illustration when I first saw it. There is an ingrained sentiment that accrues within a Catholic that amounts to believing that, yes, Jesus is Lord and He must be our Lord. Then, adjunct to this is a current running, a sentiment, a belief that no one can be judged, that if they live a good life before God--regardless of religion or belief system or whom or what they consciously and conscientiously trust, that they can be saved.
The circle described above became like for me a rubberband. The logic for it snapped when it was stretched. I knew I was not simply reacting against an illustration. The meaning of Who God in Messiah Jesus is and His relationship to His people must remain the same. The Gospel is more than what is preached. It is also what is grasped. And from that grasping, what is lived out.
Hi @Rebecca4Christ It's all about, What saith the Scriptures? isn't it?So,did you write the op sincerely? I mean,can I ask some questions and make some statements about why I see Catholicism as unbiblical? Are you still open (or were you in the first place?) to changing your mind?
Hi @Rebecca4Christ It's all about, What saith the Scriptures? isn't it?
You did an exit poll at a large number of parishes?Therein lies the difficulty, given the extremely low view of the Bible in the Catholic Church. To most Catholics, the Bible is not the primary source of Truth.
This comment seems ironic considering Pope Francis just declared this coming Sunday as Word of God Sunday and stressed that Catholics should refocus themselves on Bible study.Therein lies the difficulty, given the extremely low view of the Bible in the Catholic Church. To most Catholics, the Bible is not the primary source of Truth.
Good morning! I appreciate your feedback, and I would like to build on what you said by providing an official Catholic Church document called Dei Verbum (The Word of God); please read it & let me know if you will continue to maintain your views that the Catholic Church has a low view of the Bible. If you want to disagree with me, that's fine, I would be foolish to create a thread like this & not listen to disagreements. I just want you to be educated, to understand what the Catholic Church actually teaches before making such lofty claims.Therein lies the difficulty, given the extremely low view of the Bible in the Catholic Church. To most Catholics, the Bible is not the primary source of Truth.
[Perhaps Anti-Catholic is too strong a term, but it was a lot shorter than saying, People who seriously disagree with the Catholic Church on Biblical grounds. But I digress.]
Update: As many people have made fair arguments about my challenge, I have thought this through a little more, on how to make this more reasonable (though to be fair, I do have a user who took me up on this, and at least 1 friend who's doing this in real life). The principle reason for why I choose Catholicism isn't just because I think Dave Armstrong's arguments prove the Church as the most Biblical; I see a lot of very Biblical arguments for a lot of contrary views. I see the Church as an authoritative institution. The Bible is complicated; God knows that. He wouldn't leave us on our own, to figure out a notoriously difficult book by ourselves; it makes sense that He would institute some sort of living authority to teach us (with the infallible guidance of the Spirit) the essential moral & theological information about the faith. I intend to make a post about this in more detail in the near future; for now, I would direct anyone with the book (mentioned below) to Appendix 2: The Visible, Hierarchical, Apostolic Church. Thank you for your recommendations on how to refine my challenge, and may God lead us all to the true Church, wherever that may be!)
Update to the Update: Here it is! Please pray for good things to come as a result!Why I Choose Catholic Christianity
A very common argument against Catholicism is the idea that the Catholic Church is unbiblical. A valid concern; however, I truly believe that this idea is a misconception. I've spent quite a bit of time arguing theology here & in real life with my Protestant brothers & sisters, and my Protestant brothers and sisters have spent quite a bit of time arguing theology with me. To date, nobody has changed their mind either way.
This is often due to an understandable lack of thoroughness; the Bible is a very detailed, sometimes complicated, and remarkably long book. A proper understanding of all its implications would take extensive time & effort that many of us just don't have.
So I will direct you to a book written by someone who has put in all that time & effort...an evangelical Protestant, who did a year-long in-depth Bible study to disprove Catholicism.
Long story short...he converted.
The author is Dave Armstrong, and the book is titled A Biblical Defense of Catholicism. It's around 350 of very meticulous Biblical analysis, written to explain how the Catholic Church is the most Biblical Christian Church, and even the only truly Biblical Church.
It's detailed enough that it can be hard to read, especially when Armstrong discusses the original languages used in the Bible. But if you really want to convince me against my Catholic Christian faith, this is my challenge: Read the book (all of it), take careful notes if that's how you do things, find out how the concert got it all wrong, and let me know. Give me a thorough enough explanation for how the Catholic Church isn't Biblically & historically valid, and I promise I will convert. You have to read the book first; I can't defend my faith & explain Scripture as well as Armstrong can, so I direct my apologetics to him (sometimes it's good to let someone more educated do the explaining).
You can find it pretty cheap online (remember to use Amazon Smile if that's your avenue; that gives money to a charity of your choice, with no extra fee to you). And if you don't want to, I understand, it's a lot of reading. But if disproving Catholicism is really what you want to do in this life, then a Catholic Theology major just told you what you need to do to convince him.
May God continue to bless us all!
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