Another thread on predestination (Eph 1)

bling · Nov 1, 2019

Redwingfan9 said:
That's not what scripture teaches though. Any salvation that requires man to act, ie choosing Jesus, is a man centered and merit based salvation. The doctrine of election is Christ centered, he comes to save his elect who he has chosen before the foundation of the world. (Eph 1:4)

I fully agree if we on our own did something noble, honorable, righteous, holy and worthy than we are deserving of something, while we are totally undeserving of anything as nonbelieving sinners soldiers of satan. But if we wimp out, quit and surrender to our enemy God just willing to accept God's pure undeserved charity, we have not done anything noble, honorable righteous, holy or worthy. God at the point of our surrendering is still our enemy (like it is with any surrendering soldier), we are not asking to join God's army and in fact we should feel worthy of a torturous death for our war crimes. We are surrendering for an unrighteous selfish reason to have just some kind of life and not willing to be macho, pay the piper and keep heading down the path we are going. (We are like the prodigal son.)

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 1, 2019

zoidar said:
Concerning the "crystal ball". Jesus used foreknowledge to know that Peter would deny him thrice. It was hardly God's doing, was it?

Jesus IS Elohim, Echad with Yahuweh. Jesus IS GOD.
And still, He surrendered everything to the Father's control - He did not do anything "of Himself", but ONLY as the Father Directed, Relying His Life Completely On the Father, trusting Him.

Jesus did not use "foreknowledge", nor EVER - NO! not ever any kind of "crystal ball" symbology ever at all (that is evil/ sinful) ....

THE FATHER REVEALED to Jesus what Jesus said.

Redwingfan9 · Nov 1, 2019

bling said:
I fully agree if we on our own did something noble, honorable, righteous, holy and worthy than we are deserving of something, while we are totally undeserving of anything as nonbelieving sinners soldiers of satan. But if we wimp out, quit and surrender to our enemy God just willing to accept God's pure undeserved charity, we have not done anything noble, honorable righteous, holy or worthy. God at the point of our surrendering is still our enemy (like it is with any surrendering soldier), we are not asking to join God's army and in fact we should feel worthy of a torturous death for our war crimes. We are surrendering for an unrighteous selfish reason to have just some kind of life and not willing to be macho, pay the piper and keep heading down the path we are going. (We are like the prodigal son.)

The very act of being "just willing" turns salvation into a choice and amounts to works righteousness. It is God who saves us, it is he who enters our heart, opens our eyes, changes our view of him. It's not something we do on our own, we are utterly incapable because we are blinded by sin. Arminianism is the desperate, last ditch effort to give mankind control over his salvation. It's completely contrary to scripture and indicates an utter refusal to trust God.

redleghunter · Nov 1, 2019

bling said:
By your seeming definition of “dead” are the “dead” incapable of committing sin?

Is this a serious question?

zoidar · Nov 1, 2019

redleghunter said:
What leads us to repentance?

The Holy Spirit.

BBAS 64 · Nov 1, 2019

zoidar said:
Maybe God predestines those He knows will repent? Surely it's not merit, but mercy.

Good day, Zoidar
He knows who will be he gifted them with repentance to do so... If some one does not have repenatance can the repent.

He predestines on the basis of his will:

he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

IN Him

Bill

redleghunter · Nov 1, 2019

zoidar said:
The Holy Spirit.

Indeed. Now apply that to the argument posed that God 'sees our faith' and responds by electing us. Makes no sense.

redleghunter · Nov 1, 2019

BBAS 64 said:
He predestines on the basis of his will:

I think that is what scares the living daylights out of some. That they don't know why God operates according to His will and purpose without us having some idea of the His 'process.'

AlexDTX · Nov 1, 2019

zoidar said:
What do you think? I'm leaning to believe that God predestined us He knew would put our hope in him (v. 11-12).

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

It is a combination of His foreknowledge and our choice to respond. He knows all who will respond to his gift of life, but he does not make us respond. He will call us and woo us and work with our hearts so we can come to a point of response, but the response still lies in our choice.

bling · Nov 1, 2019

Redwingfan9 said:
The very act of being "just willing" turns salvation into a choice and amounts to works righteousness. It is God who saves us, it is he who enters our heart, opens our eyes, changes our view of him. It's not something we do on our own, we are utterly incapable because we are blinded by sin. Arminianism is the desperate, last ditch effort to give mankind control over his salvation. It's completely contrary to scripture and indicates an utter refusal to trust God.

No it does not! You have to use the Biblical definition of work (something you do that is worthy of being paid and is contrasted with bagging for charity).
When you humbly accept charity you are not doing anything to open your eyes, change your heart (you are still being selfish), changing your view (you still can be hating God). Being still selfish makes you a sinner just willing to accept charity.
The sinner just willing to accept charity is still totally deserves nothing, so God is doing it all.
What scripture does this contradict?

bling · Nov 1, 2019

redleghunter said:
Is this a serious question?

How are you defining death?

Redwingfan9 · Nov 1, 2019

bling said:
No it does not! You have to use the Biblical definition of work (something you do that is worthy of being paid and is contrasted with bagging for charity).
When you humbly accept charity you are not doing anything to open your eyes, change your heart (you are still being selfish), changing your view (you still can be hating God). Being still selfish makes you a sinner just willing to accept charity.
The sinner just willing to accept charity is still totally deserves nothing, so God is doing it all.
What scripture does this contradict?

It contradicts the entirity of Eph 1, John 10 and Romans 9. While we are the recipients of charity, if we must use that term, we do not have the ability to deny God's charity. God's work in us via salvation is his work alone, we play no role in opening our own eyes. We are dead in trespasses and sins, scripture is very clear that not one of us is good and that we cannot come to God because of our sin. I am grateful that God has worked in my heart because I am utterly incapable on my own and he is utterly capable.

BBAS 64 · Nov 1, 2019

redleghunter said:
I think that is what scares the living daylights out of some. That they don't know why God operates according to His will and purpose without us having some idea of the His 'process.'

Good day, Redleghunter

I do not have the desire to know why, but I can be sure that His will is Good and right no matter what. His purposes are Holy and always come to pass on the basis of who God is.

That does not mean I do not struggle with that at times, but I do know those struggles are because of me and not because of God I have heard it defined as practical atheism.

Lord help my unbelief!

In Him,

Bill

Dave L · Nov 1, 2019

zoidar said:
What do you think? I'm leaning to believe that God predestined us He knew would put our hope in him (v. 11-12).

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Here's what God would see;

“They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.” Romans 3:12–19 (KJV 1900)

“And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” Genesis 6:5 (KJV 1900)

BBAS 64 · Nov 1, 2019

AlexDTX said:
It is a combination of His foreknowledge and our choice to respond. He knows all who will respond to his gift of life, but he does not make us respond. He will call us and woo us and work with our hearts so we can come to a point of response, but the response still lies in our choice.

Good day, AlexDTX

Not that as far as I can see this has any grounding in the OP post of EPH 1.

But I do have a question...

So you seem to suggest that God "woos and works"for what purpose?

Just to make a response, but that does mean we are able to respond or even will respond correct?

Can God work to elicit a response and fail to get one?
Does it matter to him what we respond?
What governs the way in which we respond?

In Him,

Bill

zoidar · Nov 1, 2019

redleghunter said:
Indeed. Now apply that to the argument posed that God 'sees our faith' and responds by electing us. Makes no sense.

The Holy Spirit can be resisted.

Acts 7:51
“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

God knows who will repent. The election I believe is before creation, through foreknowledge of who will repent.

redleghunter · Nov 1, 2019

zoidar said:
The Holy Spirit can be resisted.

Acts 7:51
“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

Is that because their hearts and ears were uncircumcised?

zoidar · Nov 1, 2019

redleghunter said:
Is that because their hearts and ears were uncircumcised?

If no one who had an uncircumcised could let the Holy Spirit in, there wouldn't be any believers.

redleghunter · Nov 1, 2019

zoidar said:
If no one who had an uncircumcised could let the Holy Spirit in, there wouldn't be any believers.

Now you are getting somewhere.

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 1, 2019

zoidar said:
If no one who had an uncircumcised could let the Holy Spirit in, there wouldn't be any believers.

There's not many as it is. (without regard to the requirements mentioned or unmentioned)

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 1, 2019

redleghunter said:
What leads us to repentance?

zoidar said:
The Holy Spirit.

Is there any Scripture referring to repentance ?

Another thread on predestination (Eph 1)

Is predestination done through God's foreknowledge?

Yes

No

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