Another Question

cassie121 · May 11, 2009

Hey guys,

how do you feel about Christians who struggle with homosexuality but do not act on it? Would you be comfortable with one serving at your church?

*note* THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ON THE BIBLICAL STANDPOINT OF HOMOSEXUALITY OR IT'S STATE AS A SIN

LutheranHawkeye · May 11, 2009

I think that certain persons are born homosexual, yet that does not mean they have to act upon it. I would think that a celibate homosexual could have use in the church of course, but I don't know if the office of keys is right for them...can I get a little more info from more learned people.

LutherNut · May 11, 2009

Personally, I believe that the term "celibate homosexual" is a contradiction of terms. While it may be true that some may be born with hormonal imbalances that can effect the sex drive, I believe that homosexuality is a learned behavior. It is contrary to God's will and resulted from humanity's fallen state, like any other affliction.

I would think that one who is "struggling with homosexuality" falls under what Jesus was teaching in Matthew chapter 5 when He said, "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." The sin of adultery need not be physical.
Now, that being said, one can conclude that any single man should probably not be a pastor either, but we need to remember a couple things. One, it is a very natural and God-ordained behavior for a single man to be attracted to a single woman (even though sin may result from it). This is how humans were created to behave. For a man to be attracted to another man, whether he acts on it or not, is neither natural nor God-pleasing. The Scriptures are clear when they speak of such as "an abomination".

MarkRohfrietsch · May 12, 2009

cassie121 said:
Hey guys,

how do you feel about Christians who struggle with homosexuality but do not act on it? Would you be comfortable with one serving at your church?

*note* THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ON THE BIBLICAL STANDPOINT OF HOMOSEXUALITY OR IT'S STATE AS A SIN

Sin is sin. If someone is homosexual, and realizes it is a sin, repents and refrains from that sin, then no problem. Each and everyone of us have weakness that we struggle with. There is forgiveness in Christ for all.

LutheranHawkeye · May 12, 2009

LutherNut said:
I would think that one who is "struggling with homosexuality" falls under what Jesus was teaching in Matthew chapter 5 when He said, "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." The sin of adultery need not be physical.
Now, that being said, one can conclude that any single man should probably not be a pastor either, but we need to remember a couple things. One, it is a very natural and God-ordained behavior for a single man to be attracted to a single woman (even though sin may result from it). This is how humans were created to behave. For a man to be attracted to another man, whether he acts on it or not, is neither natural nor God-pleasing. The Scriptures are clear when they speak of such as "an abomination".

Any lust is a sin. I see no difference between homosexual lust or heterosexual lust. Isn't all sin an abomination, and not categorized? How do we as Lutherans look upon the standards for the Office of Keys...if I remember right the Bible does say something about pastors(bishops) being married no?

porterross · May 12, 2009

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Sin is sin. If someone is homosexual, and realizes it is a sin, repents and refrains from that sin, then no problem. Each and everyone of us have weakness that we struggle with. There is forgiveness in Christ for all.

We are all imperfect and require constant prayer to overcome our sinful nature and those temptations we might otherwise easily fall prey to, knowing full well it would displease God. That struggle surely exists for all of us.

LutherNut · May 12, 2009

LutheranHawkeye said:
Any lust is a sin. I see no difference between homosexual lust or heterosexual lust. Isn't all sin an abomination, and not categorized?

The Scripture specifically refers to homosexuality as an abomination. I know of no other specific sin mentioned in Scripture that is categorized as such. Heterosexuality is normal and God-ordained. You are comparing apples and oranges with your statement above.

How do we as Lutherans look upon the standards for the Office of Keys...if I remember right the Bible does say something about pastors(bishops) being married no?

The one who occupies the Office of the Keys must be "above reproach". The Bible also says that the active homosexual (practicing) and the passive homosexual (orientation, "struggling with homosexuality") will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. One who is involved with such an abominal sin certainly is not above reproach.

LutheranHawkeye · May 12, 2009

LutherNut said:
The one who occupies the Office of the Keys must be "above reproach". The Bible also says that the active homosexual (practicing) and the passive homosexual (orientation, "struggling with homosexuality") will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

That isn't the Missouri Synod's position at all. So someone who struggles and repents of their temptations and urges their whole life is still not saved because of that sin. The only sin that keeps one out of heaven is blaspheming of the Holy Spirit. It seems as if you are taking a fundamentalist approach to scriptural interpretation, and not the Lutheran approach as evident from the three other Lutheran positions on here that are in harmony, and the official position of the LCMS. Why would their be homosexuals who try their whole lives to remain celibate or to pray away their temptations for Christ, if their damned anyway. That's not my God, maybe Pat Robertson's. All people are equal and are in need of God's grace because we are all fallen, not just homosexuals.

Studeclunker · May 12, 2009

I have no problem sitting in the same pew with an individual who struggles with Homosexuality. Neither do I with anyone who struggles with gluttony, thievery, lying (including gossips), etc... Yes, Christ says none of those people will enter Heaven's gates. Yet, isn't his sacrafice sufficient to cover all our sins? I'm quite sure that any individual who is repentant of their sin and looks to Christ in faith granted by the Holy Spirit, will enter the gates of Heaven. It doesn't matter what their sins were, "Your sins, though they be as scarlet, will be cast as far as the east is from the west."

God doesn't just forgive our sins, through Jesus, HE FORGETS THEM!!

The key here is repentance. If this individual is marching in Gay Pride parades and dressing in women's clothing with bubble-gum pink hair.... well, I'd say likely they're bound for hell. There's no sign of repentance there. However, such an individual is often in Church every Sunday, with no outward signs of what they struggle with, and thus, no one knows. That's just as well too.

LutherNut · May 12, 2009

LutheranHawkeye said:
That isn't the Missouri Synod's position at all.

Then show me the LCMS' position, you're the expert.

So someone who struggles and repents of their temptations and urges their whole life is still not saved because of that sin.

The key word there is "repents". One who repents of their homosexuality is no longer a homosexual. Ergo...

The only sin that keeps one out of heaven is blaspheming of the Holy Spirit.

The only damnable sin is unbelief. Blaspheming if the Holy Spirit is an act of unbelief. Unrepentance is an act of unbelief since the Holy Spirit works repentance in us. Unrepentant sin is not forgiven.

It seems as if you are taking a fundamentalist approach to scriptural interpretation, and not the Lutheran approach as evident from the three other Lutheran positions on here that are in harmony, and the official position of the LCMS.

Now there are three Lutheran positions?

Why would their be homosexuals who try their whole lives to remain celibate or to pray away their temptations for Christ, if their damned anyway.

Again, if they are truly repentant, they are no longer homosexuals.

That's not my God, maybe Pat Robertson's. All people are equal and are in need of God's grace because we are all fallen, not just homosexuals.

That's right. And as I said, unrepentant sin is not forgiven since it is an act against the Holy Spirit, which is a sign of unbelief and a damnable sin.

LutherNut · May 12, 2009

Studeclunker said:
However, such an individual is often in Church every Sunday, with no outward signs of what they struggle with, and thus, no one knows. That's just as well too.

I don't think I follow you here. Are you saying that as long as their "struggle" is not outwardly manifested, that they are OK? The Scriptures don't say that. Or are you saying that going to church every Sunday makes them OK? That's the Law. That doesn't save either.

"No one knows"? God does, I'm certain.

LutherNut · May 12, 2009

Here, LutheranHawkeye, I'll save you the trouble:

In 1992, the LCMS adopted Res. 3-12A. This resolution reads as follows:

WHEREAS, Many voices in our society as well as in various church bodies are expressing the view today that homophile behavior is an acceptable alternative lifestyle; and

WHEREAS, The Word of God clearly condemns homophile behavior in Lev. 18:22, Rom. 1:26-27, and 1 Cor. 6:9; and

WHEREAS, The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod in convention in 1973 stated: "That the Synod recognize homophile behavior as intrinsically sinful"; and

WHEREAS, The Commission on Theology and Church Relations document on Human Sexuality, A Theological Perspective, states, "Whatever the causes of such a condition may be, . . . homosexual orientation is profoundly 'unnatural' without implying that such a person's sexual orientation is a matter of conscious, deliberate choice. However, this fact cannot be used by the homosexual as an excuse to justify homosexual behavior. As a sinful human being, the homosexual is accountable to God for homosexual thoughts, words and deeds." (Human Sexuality, A Theological Perspective, p. 35); and

WHEREAS, The redeeming love of Christ, which rescues humanity from sin, death, and the power of Satan, is offered to all through repentance and faith in Christ, regardless of the nature of their sinfulness; and

WHEREAS, The need exists to make available a carefully developed Law/Gospel ministry plan to congregations and other institutions in order to minister to those who are troubled by their homosexuality; and

WHEREAS, It is necessary for the church to expose and resist the sexual idolatry of our society; therefore be it

Resolved, That The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod, in convention, reaffirm the position it stated in 1973, "That the Synod recognize homophile behavior as intrinsically sinful"; and be it further

Resolved, That the President of the Synod direct the appropriate boards and commissions to develop a plan for ministry usable by congregations, campus ministries, institutions, and agencies in the Synod, for the purpose of providing biblical and Gospel-oriented ministry to persons troubled by being homophile in their sexual orientations and to their families; and be it finally

Resolved, That the goals to be pursued by such a plan for ministry be

to offer to our world biblically alternative models of sexual celibacy outside of a committed, permanent heterosexual marriage and same-gender social, but not genitally sexual, deep friendships;

to confront the individual with his/her sinfulness, and call him/her to repentance;

to help the individual recognize that God can rescue individuals from homosexual orientation and practice;

to assure him/her of forgiveness in Christ, contingent upon sincere repentance and faith in Christ, and to assure him/her of the love and acceptance of the church;

to assist the individual to rely on Christ's love and strength to abstain from homophile behavior;

to help the individual to bear his/her burden without fear of recrimination and rejection by his/her sisters and brothers in Christ;

to find ways of ministering to families which include persons of homophile orientation;

to do all this patiently, persistently, and compassionately in the love and Spirit of Christ, who says, "Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more."

As you can see from the official LCMS position, it's not only the behavior but the orientation that is considered Biblically sinful. The key is repentance. The LCMS as it's policy provides ministry to homosexuals and their families in order to lead them to repentance. What I have been saying all along on this matter is totally in line with the official LCMS position.

LutheranHawkeye · May 13, 2009

LutherNut said:
Then show me the LCMS' position, you're the expert.
The key word there is "repents". One who repents of their homosexuality is no longer a homosexual. Ergo...

The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod - Homosexuality
"Whatever the causes of such a condition may be, . . . homosexual orientation is profoundly 'unnatural' without implying that such a person's sexual orientation is a matter of conscious, deliberate choice. However, this fact cannot be used by the homosexual as an excuse to justify homosexual behavior. As a sinful human being, the homosexual is accountable to God for homosexual thoughts, words and deeds." (Human Sexuality, A Theological Perspective, p. 35); and WHEREAS, The redeeming love of Christ, which rescues humanity from sin, death, and the power of Satan, is offered to all through repentance and faith in Christ, regardless of the nature of their sinfulness;

Someone who repents of their sins still may have a homosexual orientation, just as a pedophile might still have urges toward children, yet may be free in Christ by continually repenting and rejecting these urges. Through repentance and faith in Christ they may be called to become celibate, and most likely their sinful nature will remain and they will be compelled to continually repent and reject their urges. Carrying a rather large cross for Christ. My thoughts, LCMS approved.

LutheranHawkeye · May 13, 2009

LutherNut said:
Here, LutheranHawkeye, I'll save you the trouble:

As you can see from the official LCMS position, it's not only the behavior but the orientation that is considered Biblically sinful. The key is repentance. The LCMS as it's policy provides ministry to homosexuals and their families in order to lead them to repentance. What I have been saying all along on this matter is totally in line with the official LCMS position.

There are homosexuals who are serious about Christ, and have said that though they ask for repentance daily, the Lord has not gifted them with wiping away their homosexual attractions. So a 99 year old man who has never married or had any sexual contact with anyone because he knows he is a homosexual and has remained celibate for Christ will burn in hell because he could never get rid of his urges through prayer?

LutherNut · May 13, 2009

LutheranHawkeye said:
The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod - Homosexuality
"Whatever the causes of such a condition may be, . . . homosexual orientation is profoundly 'unnatural' without implying that such a person's sexual orientation is a matter of conscious, deliberate choice. However, this fact cannot be used by the homosexual as an excuse to justify homosexual behavior. As a sinful human being, the homosexual is accountable to God for homosexual thoughts, words and deeds." (Human Sexuality, A Theological Perspective, p. 35); and WHEREAS, The redeeming love of Christ, which rescues humanity from sin, death, and the power of Satan, is offered to all through repentance and faith in Christ, regardless of the nature of their sinfulness;

Someone who repents of their sins still may have a homosexual orientation, just as a pedophile might still have urges toward children, yet may be free in Christ by continually repenting and rejecting these urges. Through repentance and faith in Christ they may be called to become celibate, and most likely their sinful nature will remain and they will be compelled to continually repent and reject their urges. Carrying a rather large cross for Christ.

I like how you only posted a portion of the resolution. Did you even attempt to read the whole thing? Obviously not, otherwise you would see the LCMS postition.

My thoughts, LCMS approved.

Hardly.

LutherNut · May 13, 2009

LutheranHawkeye said:
There are homosexuals who are serious about Christ, and have said that though they ask for repentance daily, the Lord has not gifted them with wiping away their homosexual attractions. So a 99 year old man who has never married or had any sexual contact with anyone because he knows he is a homosexual and has remained celibate for Christ will burn in hell because he could never get rid of his urges through prayer?

Precisely why the LCMS position contains a provision for ministering to that individual to help him see that his orientation is not God-pleasing and that he can be rescued "from homosexual orientation and practice".

With his current orientation, he is not suitable to hold the Office of the Keys.

LutheranHawkeye · May 13, 2009

LutherNut said:
Precisely why the LCMS position contains a provision for ministering to that individual to help him see that his orientation is not God-pleasing and that he can be rescued "from homosexual orientation and practice".

With his current orientation, he is not suitable to hold the Office of the Keys.

Homophile Behavior is different than orientation, both are unnatural but having a homosexual orientation alone cannot keep you out of Heaven...one can resist their orientation yet never fully be healed.

WHEREAS, The Commission on Theology and Church Relations document on Human Sexuality, A Theological Perspective, states, "Whatever the causes of such a condition may be, . . . homosexual orientation is profoundly 'unnatural' without implying that such a person's sexual orientation is a matter of conscious, deliberate choice. However, this fact cannot be used by the homosexual as an excuse to justify homosexual behavior. As a sinful human being, the homosexual is accountable to God for homosexual thoughts, words and deeds." (Human Sexuality, A Theological Perspective, p. 35);
Some people cannot pray away their orientation, God may have reasons for letting a celibate homosexual to carry that cross. A repentant celibate homosexual can attain salvation. You are assuming that homosexual orientation and behavior are the same. Answer my question about the 99 year old man...I'm super curious as to what you think.

So a 99 year old man who has never married or had any sexual contact with anyone because he knows he is a homosexual and has remained celibate for Christ will burn in hell because he could never get rid of his urges through prayer?

Studeclunker · May 13, 2009

Originally Posted by Studeclunker

However, such an individual is often in Church every Sunday, with no outward signs of what they struggle with, and thus, no one knows. That's just as well too.

LutherNut said:
I don't think I follow you here. Are you saying that as long as their "struggle" is not outwardly manifested, that they are OK? The Scriptures don't say that. Or are you saying that going to church every Sunday makes them OK? That's the Law. That doesn't save either.

"No one knows"? God does, I'm certain.

My friend, you have a tendency of taking things out of context and then attack the other participant in every discussion you enter. In this case, you've done just such a thing. I started that paragraph with, "The key here is repentence." As is just such the case. Repentence is between oneself and God. Unless of course one has wronged another individual. In the case of Homosexuality one, "sins against his own body," as it were. One also sins against God, as anyone does when disobediant to the will of God.

We, as Lutherans, are not the same as the Reformed and Baptists who believe in public confession. My last comment, "However, such an individual is often in Church every Sunday, with no outward signs of what they struggle with, and thus, no one knows. That's just as well too." Was a way of juxtaposing a positive against a negative. The first example was of an obviously unrepentant individual, the second was the opposite with the observation that the larger congregation wouldn't even know what was going on. The pastor might, if the individual had spoken to him on the situation. Otherwise, like I said before, repentance is between oneself and God. It's true that only God knows the hearts of men. It's also true that men are perhaps better off not knowing what's in each other's hearts.

porterross · May 14, 2009

So no one other than homosexuals has disturbing thoughts that pop into their head? My brain goes wonky sometimes and I've begged God to help such things cease, but we are flawed, sinful beings, surrounded by stimuli that affect us in ways we might not realize. If we weren't, we wouldn't need Christ, right?

Studeclunker · May 14, 2009

Well said Porter. I think we all struggle with that.

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