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One of the reasons I am pleased to be a follower of Christ is that I believe I have an eternity in heaven to look forward to when I die. This provides me hope and purpose during this life and removes any fear of death. (BTW, I'm not suggesting the atheist has no hope and purpose during life and fears death...).
If it turns out my faith in unfounded and there is nothing, this is irrelevant as I will never find out...
My question to the atheist is:
What do you think will happen to you when you die?
Because those atheists believe that Christianity and Islam are not only incorrect but harmful to society.Next question on beliefs v choices.
If you cannot choose your beliefs (in god as we are discussing here) then why is there such a movement among certain atheistic groups versus religion (primarily Christianity and Islam)?
For example, why would people go on the offensive versus the historicity of Jesus? Why attempt to undermine the authenticity of the bible?
Because people can assert other things beyond just not believing in God. People believe other things can be important and worth talking about.If you have no choice other than to be an atheist, then why don't you simply accept that lack of choice and leave it at that?
You don't if you don't want to.What doesn't tie in for me is that fact that I have to defend what I believe in as a Christian.
You have choice in how you act, what you expose yourself to and the decisions you make based on your conclusions. When people might ask you to justify your conclusions on theism and Christianity they are asking you to explain your reasoning and how you got there with no implication that you did so based on a choice. You are still assuming that choice is at least inferred in belief when it isn't.If I also have no choice then I am in the same situation as you are.
If we had no choice over our beliefs then I don't see why I am answering so many questions on this forum explaining why I believe them
A Christian started this thread, not me.Surely we should mutually accept our non-choice and agree to disagree?
Every time you ask us why we think what we do, you ignore us and insert your own [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]-and-bull story instead. Why bother to have a thread asking us questions if you're just going to ignore the answers? Just lecture to us and have done with it.
I notice that out of my reply you've entirely ignored the actual response I made to what you posted as evidence for design (irreducible complexity and fine-tuning), and are again trying to nitpick at what I claim my stance is based on instead (after I specifically pointed out I was tired of that crap). Instead of dealing with the evidence, you just try and make out that evolution is equivalent to ID which is most certainly is not. Why is that, Danny? Is your stance not as justified by the evidence as you think it is?
Frankly, if you want to pretend that a theory with 150 years of evidence backing it stands up to some repackaged fallacy like irreducible complexity, you've got another thing coming.
Muslims and Catholics account for more than 60% of world's population and out of the remaining 40% I would guess that at least 30% account for remaining religions or worldviews (including born again Christians) that believe in existence of a God. This leaves approx a maximum of 10% who are atheists (and that's being generous) who do not believe a God at all. It MUST be reasonable to believe in God!!
I do not lecture you. You have been keen on this thread to point out that you've debated this issue over many years on "thousands" of occasions. YOU ARE AN EXPERIENCED PRO - I am just a rookie. If I do not operate with rules of engagement that your happy with, just ignore my posts from now on. The other atheists who respond adopt a far more pleasant tone...I am learning more about the atheist viewpoint as a result of this thread - your responses on this and other threads are usually arrogant and condescending...you appear to have feel a strong disdain for Christians and in particular creationists...I have no idea why you bother wasting your time - it all seems beneath you...
And your reasons are?No - I'm not convinced by the evidence you have presented...I'm no expert but not convinced that what presented instead was more believable that what I already believe...
Abuse of the word "theory" noted - theories are based on facts, and your "theory" has far fewer than ToE, though it has lasted for longer.If longevity is a test of the validity of a theory I'll happily stick with the "theory" that God created the world around us. This theory (and in particular that gospel of Jesus Christ) has survived and is going strong after more than 2000 years, despite relentless attack in various forms along the way.
If you really want to play this argument, there are more people who are non-Christian than Christian, so why do you not accept one of their "theories"?Muslims and Catholics account for more than 60% of world's population and out of the remaining 40% I would guess that at least 30% account for remaining religions or worldviews (including born again Christians) that believe in existence of a God. This leaves approx a maximum of 10% who are atheists (and that's being generous) who do not believe a God at all. It MUST be reasonable to believe in God!!
Of course there is, because even though it's tedious to deal with, what you posted is still wrong, and I have explained why - and you have not posted any rebuttal to this at all.I am the first to admit I do not know all the answers and that I cannot prove the existence of God in terms that you would accept as proof.
I started this thread to find out what atheists thought of the issue of death. It then moved onto other things - if the issue of irreducible complexity hits a raw nerve within you, there is no need for you to comment on it at all...
It might not be true though. Precentage of people believing has no effect on whether something is true or not.
Having said that, this is a UK forum and the stats for the UK from the latest census were 25% of the population had no religion. 59% said Christian, though many are "cultural Christians".
The figure for church going Christians is 6% and the average age 51 (for the general population this is 40yrs).
You said before you were unsure about the evolution of lungs, and I presented you with some science. I think you though gills turned into lungs, though this was incorrect. What did you think?
These are fair points re. the UK where I understand atheism is far more dominant relatively than in other countries. I was really trying to point out that if you take worlds population now or at any time in human history, the vast majority would believe in the existence of a God of some form. If it was patently obvious there was no God, this would not be the case at all. Of course, they may all be wrong - but it does seem very odd for such a high volume of the worlds population for so many thousands of years to have accepted the existence of some form of God if there is absolutely no reason for that belief...
Erm....you do know that evolution has nothing to do with the big bang theory, right?I obviously accept there is variation/mutation within species - this is observable, measurable and probably predictable. This is what I understand as natural selection or micro-evolution (these terms are probably no longer valid). To then make the leap and speculate on this big-bang and what caused the matter/space/time to be there is first place and also speculate on the paths of mutation that eventually fish to fly etc etc seems to be outside the parameters of what is observable and measurable and is really guesswork. Even if it is educated guesswork, to call it scientific fact seems to me to betray to so-called skeptical attitude scientists should have to all theories.
Which is odd, given that it is entirely possible to accept evolution and be a Christian. Most Christians do. In addition, evolution being does not imply that atheism is true or that any other religion is true.I accepted "molecules-to-man" evolution for many years as this is what I got taught at school. Re-examining this theory was one of the key steps in my journey to becoming a Christian.
Actually that's not a bad idea - or at least reeevaluate the idea. If you know you lack detailed knowledge on these topics (and common sense frequently....well....isn't sensible) then why race ahead to a conclusion?I've read lots of "evidence" of both sides re. origins - I am not scientist and out of my depth with lots of the science. For me, it comes down to using my own senses and a look at what I see as the amazing "fine-tuning" and complexity of the world around us and this leads me unable to believe it was an unguided, random, accidental process. Am I biased - yes!...but I was also bias the other way before...I think its impossible for anyone to be truly unbiased no matter how hard they try...
You are looking at the same world as me - you clearly see things very differently. If this leaves you an atheist, then good luck to you...I am not doubting your sincerity, but I am also being as sincere as I know how in also trying to explain the world around me.
Some of my comments have attracted ridicule, mocking and at times personal insult to my intelligence (I'm the first to admit I'm not the cleverest chap in the world!). What do you expect me to do...abandon my believe in God immediately and fly the white flag even though what has been described instead betrays my own observation of the world around me?
Because those atheists believe that Christianity and Islam are not only incorrect but harmful to society.
I do not lecture you. You have been keen on this thread to point out that you've debated this issue over many years on "thousands" of occasions. YOU ARE AN EXPERIENCED PRO - I am just a rookie. If I do not operate with rules of engagement that your happy with, just ignore my posts from now on. The other atheists who respond adopt a far more pleasant tone...I am learning more about the atheist viewpoint as a result of this thread - your responses on this and other threads are usually arrogant and condescending...you appear to have feel a strong disdain for Christians and in particular creationists...I have no idea why you bother wasting your time - it all seems beneath you...
Mate - I see you're experiencing the Alex Ferguson "hairdryer" treatment first hand from our friend from Luke 8:30....
Rich coming from you given your general incompetence with logic. Funny how you never respond to my points to point out where these fallacies are - and the last time you were doing so you couldn't even get my argument straight in the first place - and you made the exact same blunder with tony, which I was sure to have clarified in the thread.You're trying to discuss something with someone who relies on straw men, kettle logic, special pleading, shotgun arguments, false analogies, association fallacies, mind projection fallacies, and a whole host of other formal and informal fallacies.
That commands a long answer. The normalisation and acceptanced of totalitarianism (in the form of thought-crime and hell) would be just one way that horrifies me the most.How is Christianity harmful to society?
I have no idea. At the very least you're spreading the idea that people deserve to be tormented for eternity. I realise that is not a necessary Christian belief but it is extremely pervasive.What exactly am I doing as a Christian that is harming society?
It means it is wrong.Furthermore, what does Christianity being incorrect actually mean?
It means it is wrong.Incorrect versus correct? But what is correct though? I don't understand what this means.
It means it is wrong.
It means it is wrong.
That commands a long answer. The normalisation and acceptanced of totalitarianism (in the form of thought-crime and hell) would be just one way that horrifies me the most.
I have no idea. At the very least you're spreading the idea that people deserve to be tormented for eternity. I realise that is not a necessary Christian belief but it is extremely pervasive.
Your question is incoherent. Everyone accepts or rejects something based on their opinion be it reasoned or otherwise.In accordance to what though? Your opinion or anything vaguely meaningful that someone other than you might actually understand?
I wasn't going to.Don't bother with a long answer
I already know that you believe all non-Christians deserve eternal torment. You've said it often and argued for it repeatedly.- what you've written above is enough to show me that I wouldn't even bother reading it; I don't engage in straw man arguments.
Islam is just as bad if not worse when it comes to totalitarianism.There are elements of Islam where Sharia is applied at state level; here there is a valid comparison.
Uganda (and historically, Christianity has been quite the oppressor).Can you in any vaguely serious way compare any element of Christianity anywhere in the world to the application of Sharia at state or even regional levels?
How on earth should I know exactly? I don't know you. I think Christianity is broadly (like all religion) harmful to society but that does not mean that I think that all Christians are necessary perpetrators and antagonists in this harm. Many are mild mannered, calm or not even necessarily advocates of some of the viler beliefs maintained by Christianity. Others are more assertive.What exactly am I doing right now as a Christian that is harming any aspect or element of society?
Your question is incoherent.
Everyone accepts or rejects something based on their opinion be it reasoned or otherwise.
I already know that you believe all non-Christians deserve eternal torment. You've said it often and argued for it repeatedly
I also did answer your question: You spreading the idea that people deserve to be tormented for eternity is harmful.
It is disgusting that children might be told it and the acceptance of it normalises totalitarianism at the most basic level. It negates the spirit of breaking oppression and is the justification for nonsense ideas such as Pascal's Wager and faith (both of which encourage dishonesty, self-deception and anti-intellectualism).
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