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Another Flood Question
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<blockquote data-quote="Jimmy D" data-source="post: 71989827" data-attributes="member: 366806"><p>Why would I? I was merely offering an example of a catastrophic event / extinction event other than a flood, I don't believe I mentioned dinosaurs. I'm glad you've finally managed to admit you are wrong about something though.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Do be fair you've cited NOTHING apart from your opinion. References to scientific research seems to be lacking in all your posts, I wonder why?</p><p></p><p>It seems that you are suggesting that because I haven't posted an example of a fossil forming from the last few thousand years that fossilzation can only occur in a worldwide flood. Is that correct? Because it seems like a particularly bizarre and ill thought out claim to make for many reasons....</p><p></p><p>Firstly, for someone who is so obsessed with scientific defnitions you appear to be ignoring the fact that fossils are defined as over 10,000 years old. A lack of "recent" fossils would in NO WAY impact our understanding of how fossils were formed in the past, and ofcorse, an absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.</p><p></p><p>Of course all that demonstrates that your thought process is extremely lacking, but as I mentioned before, I couldn't be bothered to present any examples of subfossils (there, you've learnt something today) because of the inevitable hand waving and denial you typically exhibit.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I didn't say I couldn't.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Fine, will you drop this ridiculous line of argument if I do?</p><p></p><p><em>In 2005, after a hundred years of neglect, a part of the Mare aux Songes swamp was excavated by an international team of researchers (International Dodo Research Project). To prevent <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaria" target="_blank">malaria</a>, the British had covered the swamp with <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_foundation" target="_blank">hard core</a> during their rule over Mauritius, which had to be removed. Many remains were found, including bones of at least 17 dodos in various stages of maturity (though no juveniles), and several bones obviously from the skeleton of one individual bird, which have been preserved in their natural position.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo#cite_note-FOOTNOTERijsdijk_et_al.2011-113" target="_blank">[113]</a> These findings were made public in December 2005 in the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalis" target="_blank">Naturalis</a> museum in <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leiden" target="_blank">Leiden</a>. 63% of the fossils found in the swamp belonged to turtles of the extinct <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylindraspis" target="_blank">Cylindraspis</a> genus, and 7.1% belonged to dodos, which had been deposited within several centuries, 4,000 years ago.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo#cite_note-FOOTNOTERijsdijk_et_al.2009-114" target="_blank">[114]</a> Subsequent excavations suggested that dodos and other animals became mired in the Mare aux Songes while trying to reach water during a long period of severe drought about 4,200 years ago.</em></p><p></p><p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo" target="_blank">Dodo - Wikipedia</a></p><p></p><p><em>Much of the ‘fossil’ record for lemurs is recent by fossil standards, and so most specimens haven’t become fully <a href="http://www.livescience.com/37781-how-do-fossils-form-rocks.html" target="_blank">fossilized</a>. As a result, lemur paleontology is besprinkled with the term “subfossil,” indicating bones that are really old and belong to extinct animals, but don’t fit the technical definition of fossils. The lemur subfossil record has taught us a lot about the evolutionary history, adaptations, and <a href="http://today.duke.edu/2014/12/giantlemurs" target="_blank">recently even genetics</a> of this primitive group of primates, as well as about the ecological history of Madagascar.</em></p><p></p><p><a href="https://lawnchairanthropology.com/2015/01/09/effing-fossil-friday-subfossil-lemurs-fff/" target="_blank">eFfing #FossilFriday: Subfossil lemurs</a></p><p></p><p><em><strong>Subfossil lemurs</strong> are <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemur" target="_blank">lemurs</a> from <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar" target="_blank">Madagascar</a> that are represented by recent (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subfossil" target="_blank">subfossil</a>) remains dating from nearly 26,000 years ago (from the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Pleistocene" target="_blank">late Pleistocene</a> until the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene" target="_blank">Holocene</a>) to approximately 560 years ago. They include both living and <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction" target="_blank">extinct</a> species, although the term more frequently refers to the extinct <strong>giant lemurs</strong>. The diversity of subfossil lemur communities was greater than that of present-day lemur communities, ranging from as high as 20 or more species per location, compared with 10 to 12 species today. Extinct species are estimated to have ranged in size from slightly over 10 kg (22 lb) to roughly 160 kg (350 lb). Even the subfossil remains of living species are larger and more robust than the skeletal remains of modern specimens. The subfossil sites found around most of the island demonstrate that most giant lemurs had wide distributions and that ranges of living species have contracted significantly since the arrival of humans.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subfossil_lemur" target="_blank">Subfossil lemur - Wikipedia</a></em></p><p></p><p><em>Madagascar’s subfossil record preserves a diverse community of animals including elephant birds, pygmy hippopotamus, giant lemurs, turtles, crocodiles, bats, rodents, and carnivorans. These fossil accumulations give us a window into the island’s past from 80,000 years ago to a mere few hundred years ago, recording the extinction of some groups and the persistence of others. The crocodylian subfossil record is limited to two taxa, Voay robustus and Crocodylus niloticus, found at sites distributed throughout the island. V. robustus is extinct while C. niloticus is still found on the island today, but whether these two species overlapped temporally, or if Voay was driven to extinction by competing with Crocodylus remains unknown. While their size and presumed behavior was similar to each other, nearly nothing is known about the growth and development of Voay, as the overwhelming majority of fossil specimens represent mature adult individuals. Here we describe a nearly complete juvenile crocodylian specimen from Anjohibe Cave, northwestern Madagascar. The specimen is referred to Crocodylus based on the presence of caviconchal recesses on the medial wall of the maxillae, and to C. niloticus based on the presence of an oval shaped internal choana, lack of rostral ornamentation and a long narrow snout. However, as there are currently no described juvenile specimens of Voay robustus, it is important to recognize that some of the defining characteristics of that genus may have changed through ontogeny. Elements include a nearly complete skull and many postcranial elements (cervical, thoracic, sacral, and caudal vertebrae, pectoral elements, pelvic elements, forelimb and hindlimb elements, osteoderms). Crocodylus niloticus currently inhabits Madagascar but is locally extinct from this particular region; radiometric dating indicates an age of ∼460–310 years before present (BP). This specimen clearly represents a juvenile based on the extremely small size and open sutures/detached neural arches; total body length is estimated to be ∼1.1 m (modern adults of this species range from ∼4–6 m). This fossil represents the only juvenile subfossil crocodylian specimen reported from Madagascar.<a href="https://doi.org/10.1177%2F0959683613484675" target="_blank">2013</a>).</em></p><p></p><p><a href="https://peerj.com/articles/2296/" target="_blank">A juvenile subfossil crocodylian from Anjohibe Cave, Northwestern Madagascar</a></p><p></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>A new study by Trevor H. Worthy, Miyess Mitri, Atholl Anderson and colleagues allowed for a new conclusion. After an analysis of the 600 or so subfossil remains of the bird, some of which are more than 5000 years old, it was realized just what kind of bird <em>Sylviornis</em> was. It was not a real megapode as its name suggested, instead being a sort of primitive stem-Galliforme. Thus it lay at the very base of this huge bird family. </em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>There are even clues to the birds’ extinction, and probably the extinction of many of the native New Caledonian fauna. Six years ago members of the same research team of Anderson and Worthy and a few other colleagues published a study about the end of these animals. It was published in the Journal of Pacific Archaeology, and included research material from New Caledonia’s Pindai Cave system. Pindai is one of the richest of the island’s fossil sites and contained the bones of about 45 species of birds. These included kagu, still alive today, species of snipe, owlet-nightjars and of course Sylviornis. Birds were not the only creatures here though. The animals found in Pindai include mice, rats, bats, monitor lizards and even the terrestrial crocodile Mekosuchus, the island’s apex predator. Radiocarbon dating of the fossils told the team that the chronologically youngest remains of the “giant chicken” were about 3000 years old.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em><a href="http://www.eartharchives.org/articles/the-giant-chickens-of-new-caledonia/" target="_blank">The giant chickens of New Caledonia | Earth Archives</a></em></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jimmy D, post: 71989827, member: 366806"] Why would I? I was merely offering an example of a catastrophic event / extinction event other than a flood, I don't believe I mentioned dinosaurs. I'm glad you've finally managed to admit you are wrong about something though. Do be fair you've cited NOTHING apart from your opinion. References to scientific research seems to be lacking in all your posts, I wonder why? It seems that you are suggesting that because I haven't posted an example of a fossil forming from the last few thousand years that fossilzation can only occur in a worldwide flood. Is that correct? Because it seems like a particularly bizarre and ill thought out claim to make for many reasons.... Firstly, for someone who is so obsessed with scientific defnitions you appear to be ignoring the fact that fossils are defined as over 10,000 years old. A lack of "recent" fossils would in NO WAY impact our understanding of how fossils were formed in the past, and ofcorse, an absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Of course all that demonstrates that your thought process is extremely lacking, but as I mentioned before, I couldn't be bothered to present any examples of subfossils (there, you've learnt something today) because of the inevitable hand waving and denial you typically exhibit. I didn't say I couldn't. Fine, will you drop this ridiculous line of argument if I do? [I]In 2005, after a hundred years of neglect, a part of the Mare aux Songes swamp was excavated by an international team of researchers (International Dodo Research Project). To prevent [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaria']malaria[/URL], the British had covered the swamp with [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_foundation']hard core[/URL] during their rule over Mauritius, which had to be removed. Many remains were found, including bones of at least 17 dodos in various stages of maturity (though no juveniles), and several bones obviously from the skeleton of one individual bird, which have been preserved in their natural position.[URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo#cite_note-FOOTNOTERijsdijk_et_al.2011-113'][113][/URL] These findings were made public in December 2005 in the [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalis']Naturalis[/URL] museum in [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leiden']Leiden[/URL]. 63% of the fossils found in the swamp belonged to turtles of the extinct [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylindraspis']Cylindraspis[/URL] genus, and 7.1% belonged to dodos, which had been deposited within several centuries, 4,000 years ago.[URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo#cite_note-FOOTNOTERijsdijk_et_al.2009-114'][114][/URL] Subsequent excavations suggested that dodos and other animals became mired in the Mare aux Songes while trying to reach water during a long period of severe drought about 4,200 years ago.[/I] [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo"]Dodo - Wikipedia[/URL] [I]Much of the ‘fossil’ record for lemurs is recent by fossil standards, and so most specimens haven’t become fully [URL='http://www.livescience.com/37781-how-do-fossils-form-rocks.html']fossilized[/URL]. As a result, lemur paleontology is besprinkled with the term “subfossil,” indicating bones that are really old and belong to extinct animals, but don’t fit the technical definition of fossils. The lemur subfossil record has taught us a lot about the evolutionary history, adaptations, and [URL='http://today.duke.edu/2014/12/giantlemurs']recently even genetics[/URL] of this primitive group of primates, as well as about the ecological history of Madagascar.[/I] [URL="https://lawnchairanthropology.com/2015/01/09/effing-fossil-friday-subfossil-lemurs-fff/"]eFfing #FossilFriday: Subfossil lemurs[/URL] [I][B]Subfossil lemurs[/B] are [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemur']lemurs[/URL] from [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar']Madagascar[/URL] that are represented by recent ([URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subfossil']subfossil[/URL]) remains dating from nearly 26,000 years ago (from the [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Pleistocene']late Pleistocene[/URL] until the [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene']Holocene[/URL]) to approximately 560 years ago. They include both living and [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction']extinct[/URL] species, although the term more frequently refers to the extinct [B]giant lemurs[/B]. The diversity of subfossil lemur communities was greater than that of present-day lemur communities, ranging from as high as 20 or more species per location, compared with 10 to 12 species today. Extinct species are estimated to have ranged in size from slightly over 10 kg (22 lb) to roughly 160 kg (350 lb). Even the subfossil remains of living species are larger and more robust than the skeletal remains of modern specimens. The subfossil sites found around most of the island demonstrate that most giant lemurs had wide distributions and that ranges of living species have contracted significantly since the arrival of humans.[/I] [I] [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subfossil_lemur"]Subfossil lemur - Wikipedia[/URL][/I] [I]Madagascar’s subfossil record preserves a diverse community of animals including elephant birds, pygmy hippopotamus, giant lemurs, turtles, crocodiles, bats, rodents, and carnivorans. These fossil accumulations give us a window into the island’s past from 80,000 years ago to a mere few hundred years ago, recording the extinction of some groups and the persistence of others. The crocodylian subfossil record is limited to two taxa, Voay robustus and Crocodylus niloticus, found at sites distributed throughout the island. V. robustus is extinct while C. niloticus is still found on the island today, but whether these two species overlapped temporally, or if Voay was driven to extinction by competing with Crocodylus remains unknown. While their size and presumed behavior was similar to each other, nearly nothing is known about the growth and development of Voay, as the overwhelming majority of fossil specimens represent mature adult individuals. Here we describe a nearly complete juvenile crocodylian specimen from Anjohibe Cave, northwestern Madagascar. The specimen is referred to Crocodylus based on the presence of caviconchal recesses on the medial wall of the maxillae, and to C. niloticus based on the presence of an oval shaped internal choana, lack of rostral ornamentation and a long narrow snout. However, as there are currently no described juvenile specimens of Voay robustus, it is important to recognize that some of the defining characteristics of that genus may have changed through ontogeny. Elements include a nearly complete skull and many postcranial elements (cervical, thoracic, sacral, and caudal vertebrae, pectoral elements, pelvic elements, forelimb and hindlimb elements, osteoderms). Crocodylus niloticus currently inhabits Madagascar but is locally extinct from this particular region; radiometric dating indicates an age of ∼460–310 years before present (BP). This specimen clearly represents a juvenile based on the extremely small size and open sutures/detached neural arches; total body length is estimated to be ∼1.1 m (modern adults of this species range from ∼4–6 m). This fossil represents the only juvenile subfossil crocodylian specimen reported from Madagascar.[URL='https://doi.org/10.1177%2F0959683613484675']2013[/URL]).[/I] [I][/I] [URL="https://peerj.com/articles/2296/"]A juvenile subfossil crocodylian from Anjohibe Cave, Northwestern Madagascar[/URL] [I] A new study by Trevor H. Worthy, Miyess Mitri, Atholl Anderson and colleagues allowed for a new conclusion. After an analysis of the 600 or so subfossil remains of the bird, some of which are more than 5000 years old, it was realized just what kind of bird [I]Sylviornis[/I] was. It was not a real megapode as its name suggested, instead being a sort of primitive stem-Galliforme. Thus it lay at the very base of this huge bird family. There are even clues to the birds’ extinction, and probably the extinction of many of the native New Caledonian fauna. Six years ago members of the same research team of Anderson and Worthy and a few other colleagues published a study about the end of these animals. It was published in the Journal of Pacific Archaeology, and included research material from New Caledonia’s Pindai Cave system. Pindai is one of the richest of the island’s fossil sites and contained the bones of about 45 species of birds. These included kagu, still alive today, species of snipe, owlet-nightjars and of course Sylviornis. Birds were not the only creatures here though. The animals found in Pindai include mice, rats, bats, monitor lizards and even the terrestrial crocodile Mekosuchus, the island’s apex predator. Radiocarbon dating of the fossils told the team that the chronologically youngest remains of the “giant chicken” were about 3000 years old.[/I] [I] [URL="http://www.eartharchives.org/articles/the-giant-chickens-of-new-caledonia/"]The giant chickens of New Caledonia | Earth Archives[/URL][/I] [/QUOTE]
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